@john: in any case: "unask question/s" != "it doesn't work" "not listed explicitly in the docs" != "it isn't possible"
regards, gerhard 2016-07-31 14:49 GMT+02:00 John D. Ament <johndam...@apache.org>: > @gerhard: > > Don't forget, most questions go unasked. granted, i'm not sure what the > scope of configuration per tenant looks like, and may drive more your > architectural decisions around env per tenant/schema per tenant/column > discriminator. > > I'd be very happy to hear what about DS Werner found inadequate. > > John > > On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 8:34 AM Gerhard Petracek <gpetra...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > @werner: > > the comments e.g. about deltaspike-config for > > microservices/multi-tenancy/... are proven to be wrong (proven by real > > projects in production). > > >afair< we haven't seen any question about issues with such topics (on > the > > deltaspike-lists). > > we can't help if nobody asks, however, that doesn't mean that there is a > > limitation. > > -> i would prefer discussions based on proven facts which are more to the > > point. > > > > regards, > > gerhard > > > > > > > > 2016-07-30 23:30 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.k...@gmail.com>: > > > > > Lars, > > > > > > Thanks a lot for your input. Of course we have a few people with a > strong > > > financial background including Anatole who worked in a bank for many > > years > > > or myself. > > > Right now I help a major bank with their Java EE and Spring-based > > solutions > > > and there are also quite a few Apache projects like Wicket involved on > > the > > > front end. > > > > > > At the moment we're not yet dealing with the configuration part and > where > > > we do, I am pretty sure this client will leverage Spring. > > > A while ago in another large financial project pretty much everything > > Java > > > EE has to offer from CDI to JPA, Bean Validation or JBatch was used. > And > > > that project also applied a very fine grained separation of services > in a > > > "Microservice" style. So unlike marketing fuzz created by many vendors > > > (Spring/Pivotal also does a lot;-) Java EE applied correctly is usually > > > more than enough for a Microservice type project. > > > > > > Similar to what you described in your banking solution, frameworks and > > > libraries created there were inspired by e.g. Tamaya or DeltaSpike, but > > did > > > not use them. > > > With Tamaya it was mainly because of Incubation. Should it remain > useful > > to > > > real projects like yours or others, the guys in this project would > likely > > > use it if it left incubation. > > > With DeltaSpike it simply didn't meet its requirements. Lacking support > > for > > > Microservices or multi-tenancy which is why they chose to write their > > own, > > > quite similar to what you described or feeling not too different from > > e.g. > > > Spring Config with annotations like @Configuration or @Configurable but > > > suitable for their needs, e.g. a fine grained separation of > environments > > > and also security aspects Java failed to standardize as of now (some > were > > > identified by JSR 375 as relevant, but let's not go there here now) > > > > > > It is important to get a "reality check" from participants like > yourself. > > > And without proper vendor involvement it also won't see much adoption > I'm > > > afraid. > > > I worked with Java ever since it exists everywhere from Java ME > Embedded > > to > > > Java EE (the only thing I didn't do so far is JavaCard) > > > After writing even an entire application server based on EJB 1 and what > > > "J2EE 1" had to offer in 1998 (I was also at the JavaOne when Sun > > unveiled > > > it) for a pension fund I worked with every of the major vendors. Often > in > > > the same team as e.g. Oracle, IBM or BEA consultants. The result of > some > > of > > > that work went into standards like Portlet 1 or Java Content Repository > > > (both BEA and Day, now Adobe were in that project, so even then some > > > standards were derived from real client projects) > > > > > > Around 10 years ago I helped BEA Systems directly with their > Professional > > > Services teams and in the UK support center. The only external > freelance > > > consultant for the entire EMEA region. Our team manager had many > > interviews > > > with candidates either contract or permanent, but he always said, they > > did > > > not have my experience. So until the Oracle takeover I stayed the only > > > freelancer there. > > > With that background (e.g. after Oracle took over BEA the same manager > > > reported to Adam Messinger, now CTO at Twitter, he was working for the > > > original Weblogic company before that became part of BEA;-) and nearly > a > > > decade of JCP EC work now, I came across many interesting challenges. > > E.g. > > > the CDI you know now based on later proposed JSR 330 (@Inject) was born > > > from a serious amount of friction between Google, SpringSource (not so > > > active though) and JBoss/Red Hat. Mike Keith whom I knew well from > > Eclipse > > > and JPA work kindly offered to mediate. I was also involved from the > JCP > > EC > > > side and due to being in the EE 6 Umbrella JSR, too. You may find some > of > > > those discussions in Google Groups or Google Code Forums unless Google > > shut > > > down the latter now. Maybe some also happened in the earliest CDI > > > discussion forums. > > > > > > If you think any of the discussions I'm aware of here are harsh, you > have > > > not seen those arguments. Some technically, others simply fuelled by > > vanity > > > like (that's supposed to be in our JSR, not yours;-) You have to ask > > Mark, > > > if similar "vanity" is involved here, too. In a few threads I did > sense a > > > bit of that "don't compete with DeltaSpike" but I don't think it was > Mark > > > btw. And proposing "Yet another configuration API" pretending it was a > > JSR > > > did not sound like considering DeltaSpike the ultimate answer to all > > > configuration questions either. > > > I cannot say if a common standard developed under the JCP or a similar > > body > > > will end up entirely based on annotations or not. The most commonly > used > > > alternatives like Spring Config are mostly used via annotations. > > DeltaSpike > > > offers some aspects and the in-house framework you mentioned and others > > > also have seen at their customers also do. > > > Separating the underlying "value holder" (Configuration interface) from > > > usage by annotations like Spring (or Mike Keith also envisioned) I'd > say > > > Tamaya got pretty right already. > > > > > > Spring is not famous for its proper separation of "API" and > > > "Implementation". Unlike CDI and many other JSRs it is not a standard > > > specified by any place like ISO, ETSI, OASIS or JCP, so it does not see > > the > > > need for that. Nevertheless it allows to use @Inject and other > standards > > in > > > many areas now. > > > So if a standard was created by somebody it would not be bad to also > get > > > them involved or use some of it. > > > Spring Data or Spring Integration also make use of JSR 354 now btw, so > if > > > such standard for configuration did not contradict everything it does > > with > > > its config frameworks, I see no reason why they should not be > interested > > in > > > something like this. > > > > > > The only strong words you may have heard by me in this discussion was > > about > > > Mark's panic reaction and clear abuse of the JCP branding and package > > > names. > > > He's a JCP member himself and by doing so he violated and jeopardized > his > > > membership. Other fellow JCP EC members like the LJC reps who saw his > > > announcement e.g. on the Microprofile list also urged him to fix this > or > > > delete the codebase and the PMO was ready to "unleash the blood hounds" > > had > > > we not both confirmed that he at least changed the incriminating > package > > > name. > > > > > > Other than that like you and I'm sure enough others I hope Tamaya > becomes > > > "useful". Simple or modular into smaller chunks is not bad. Working > with > > > small and Embedded systems a lot,too I understand better than many > "Pure > > EE > > > developers" how important size can be. > > > However, the idea behind creating Tamaya was neither to directly > compete > > > with DeltaSpike or Commons Configuration, nor to create a JSR there > > > already. > > > Having a separation between API and implementation helps, under certain > > > circumstances Tamaya could even offer to be an RI for a possible > > standard, > > > but it's supposed to be the PoC for one or more configuration use > cases, > > > not the JSR. > > > > > > Hope everyone understands that? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 1:16 PM, Lars-Fredrik Smedberg < > > itsme...@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > I've been following the discussions the last couple of week(s) and I > > must > > > > admit that it has both been interesting and frustrating. Interesting > > > > because I always like to see how different people choose to solve the > > > same > > > > or similar problems, frustrating because I (personally) feel that the > > > tone > > > > in the emails has been more than once or twice kindof harsh (from all > > > sides > > > > if I may call it "sides") and to me sometimes without a reaso... > > > > > > > > I would have loved to be more involved in Tamaya or the discussions > > going > > > > on about configuration in general, my excuse (accept it or not :)) is > > > that > > > > I > > > > work full time, takes care of my company, house and two kids on my > own. > > > > More on that over a beer or two if we ever meet :) > > > > > > > > I'm not sure who will be on the meetups but it would be nice / > > > interesting > > > > to either listen in / take part of them or at least the result of > them. > > > Who > > > > knows, I might have some input that will help :) > > > > > > > > I've been working with Java for 20 years now, mostly as a consultant > > but > > > > also started companies developing products for the financial industry > > > > (mostly derivatives trading, post trade systems). I wouldn't call me > an > > > > expert but I've seen alot of code and done alot of development during > > the > > > > years. > > > > > > > > Been working as a consultant for banks for a long time now and lately > > > with > > > > a customer where I'm involved in developing a "platform" for making > it > > > easy > > > > for developers to develop bank applications, the platform takes care > of > > > > (implicitly or explicitly depening on the functionality) all things > > that > > > a > > > > bank applications needs such as audit, security, logging etc. The > > > framework > > > > tries to be up to date with JEE and Java (that includes many of the > JEE > > > > related technologies sich as CDI, JAX-RS, JAX-WS, Bean validation and > > so > > > > on....). > > > > > > > > Typically a "bank application" is developed by a team and/or > maintained > > > by > > > > a team of people. In an appserver there can be many "bank > applications" > > > > running each requiring their configuration. When were going to look > at > > > > enhancing the way configuration were done we took a look at Tamaya > but > > > > still decided to write our own (partly inspired by Tamaya) > > configuration > > > > framework. Some of the features we needed I did not find in Tamaya > (or > > > > maybe I didn't understand how to implement them using Tamaya), we > also > > > > needed a nice API towards the bank application developers (which > > ofcourse > > > > could have been done on top of Tamaya) but the main reason for > rolling > > > our > > > > own solution was that we felt it hard to understand how to use Tamaya > > > > (maybe due to its flexibility, or maybe the documentation at the > early > > > > stage of development, I cannot tell exactly what part that made us > > choose > > > > to not use it...). > > > > > > > > Some of the features we have in our solution are: > > > > > > > > - API towards the bank application that is annotation based > > > > (@ApplicationConfiguration(property=...) and supports different types > > > such > > > > as String, Number derivatives and so on (in the configuration it is > all > > > > string->string) > > > > - Bank applications each have their set of configuration properties > > > > (META-INF/conf/<application> > > > > - Configuration for the platform can be used by bank applications but > > not > > > > overriden by them > > > > - All configuration can be set/overriden by operations who are > > > responsible > > > > for the servers > > > > - Overriding can be done using ordinals, this can also be done > withing > > an > > > > application if it contains multiple modules (not all modules might be > > > used > > > > for all installations) > > > > - Resolving using proprerty placeholder (if needed) syntax within the > > > > properites themselves but also withing e.g. XML files read by > > > applications > > > > - Properties can be placed in property files under META-INF... an but > > > also > > > > in environment entries, system properties, context/jndi etc > > > > - The resolving can make use of wether the server is a test server > > > > (functional, integration, production test, production), wether its > > > internal > > > > or external (different network zones, security mechanisms and so on) > > and > > > so > > > > on.. the configuration can therefor be written once (and only one > bank > > > > application artifact needs to be built) and used throughout the > testing > > > > process until (and including) it reaches production > > > > - ...and more things... > > > > > > > > The solution itself is very small but fulfills our needs and is > simple > > to > > > > use for the bank application developers. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > LF > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Werner Keil <werner.k...@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Also seen among many others in CDI where > > > > > javax.enterprise.inject.spi.CDIProvider is an SPI element to allow > > > access > > > > > to what's the only static accessor in CDI, the class with the same > > > name, > > > > > not a static factory itself;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Werner Keil < > werner.k...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The name IMO is. A static facade "ConfigurationProvider" is > > > misleading > > > > > > because its naming pattern overlaps with SPI elements commonly > > named > > > > > > *Provider everywhere (especially in JSRs, not every other > > "framework" > > > > > > popular or not even makes a distinction between API and SPI;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems DeltaSpike brought that antipattern into Tamaya since > there's > > > at > > > > > > least one "provider" package with static facade singletons. If > > Tamaya > > > > can > > > > > > live with that, then why not in this Apache PoC. Neither Tamaya > nor > > > > > > DeltaSpike or Spring will be a 1:1 blueprint for a future > standard > > we > > > > > > probably see at least after JavaOne based on what Oracle plans > for > > > > "Java > > > > > EE > > > > > > in the Cloud". > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 8:21 AM, Mark Struberg > > > > <strub...@yahoo.de.invalid > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> That's how it used to be since pretty much almost the beginning. > > > > > >> And that part was also not in question imo. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> LieGrue, > > > > > >> strub > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Thursday, 21 July 2016, 16:02, Anatole Tresch < > > > > atsti...@gmail.com> > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> > > yep... > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > 2016-07-21 14:08 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.k...@gmail.com > >: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >> Anatole/all, > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> So ConfigurationProvider boils down to just a > > getConfiguration() > > > > > >> method > > > > > >> >> now? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Med vänlig hälsning / Best regards > > > > > > > > Lars-Fredrik Smedberg > > > > > > > > STATEMENT OF CONFIDENTIALITY: > > > > The information contained in this electronic message and any > > > > attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the > > > > address(es) and may contain confidential or privileged information. > If > > > > you are not the intended recipient, please notify Lars-Fredrik > Smedberg > > > > immediately at itsme...@gmail.com, and destroy all copies of this > > > > message and any attachments. > > > > > > > > > >
