That was not supposed to go to the dev list!
On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hls...@gmail.com> wrote: > This is the oddest mail I've gotten recently. In between the general > crankiness (bordering on racism) he's very unhappy about some 3rd party T5 > libs. Is there anything to that? > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *...* > Date: Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 11:19 AM > Subject: RE: I know you cant be bothered, but if you can it really would > be gracious > To: Howard Lewis Ship <hls...@gmail.com> > > > Thanks for the KIND response Howard. > > I am sh&$%canning tynamo due to their lack of response which has > transcended years of open source abuse. > > Which in turn leaves me to depart from tapestry 5 painfully because I like > your framework and what it gives. > > I committed to the tynamo guys and waited and waited and I have no idea > how their link is on your project page as an extension. Does anyone regard > that a developer somewhere is assuming this is commercially ripe and ready > to use ? Its a ditch. And I will stop there because I will get myself in > trouble if i continue characterizations of what the state of the code is > and how its able to function... it purely doesnt and been mismanaged for > too long by the wrong egotistical developers sought for total self gain and > mislead talented folks down a dead end. Its obvious they just quit. > > I encourage you to depart from tynamo. > > This type of alternative is where I will restart > > http://carminecarella.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/accounts-manager-a-sample-web-application-with-twitter-bootstrap-backbone-js-restful-j2ee-and-jpa/ > > One of my gigs years back was at Raytheon and I wrote my own mini > hibernate by scratch and my own CRUD interfaces and default set of web > pages. It was highly admired as a cookie cutter for 400 web apps for the > patriot missile logistics management project. > > I regret trusting open source coders and depending on their delivery for > commercial frameworks. > > Its a shame but this kind of feedback whereby a developer is actually > canning and leaving might be a trend. > > Its a shame and I wish the open source was regulated by standards and > disciplines that make software development possible. > > The handful or the few that have done something just does not impress me . > > Whether tapestry5 lives or dies, does not matter to me anymore. I > privileged the framework by giving it my heart and trusted those few who > made the difference and somehow maintain their place. If I find tapestry is > useful as a complete front end maybe but for now I am bailing. > Sorry to intrude. > > > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:05:47 -0700 > Subject: Re: I know you cant be bothered, but if you can it really would > be gracious > From: hls...@gmail.com > > > > I'm not sure how to respond. You seem to be very angry about various > things. > > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 5:17 AM, *...* wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > I committed to specific frameworks so one day I wold write a web site so > users could do something productive some day. > > But I find myself sitting here 2014 sick to my stomach that I cannot even > checkout tynamo. perform a clean build and model a website using the 15+ > years of java > > Or that I cannot even post a pet ad on http://pets.oodle.com because some > indian(s) have taken over the marketplace and wrapped EBAY and consumed > every search criteria to be THEIR's and controlling every users attempt to > do something mandating the users operate under their dictatorship without > any other authority. > > > I don't think I understand this. It doesn't look like pets.oodle.com is > written in Tapestry. > > Yes it is annoying that some people (not necessarily Indian nationals) > have found ways to game various systems on the Internet. Just as many eyes > make bugs shallow, many eyes also make exploits visible. Our job is often > to see deeper than others, and prevent these negative uses of the software > we create. > > That being said, if the Taliban, or the Westboro Baptist Church, or > Monsanto used Tapestry to build their site, even to say or do horrible > things, that is part of the price we pay to enable so many others to create > positive works. > > > > I have seen the internet taken over and being abused. > > I committed to tynamo since 2006 and its really gone nowhere and a toy yet > it has been promoted and put on your framework as a viable option when it > isnt and the two foreigners operating that turf there are done the same > thing the foreigners at http://pets.oodle.com do... they abuse their > role, authority, content and dictatorship and nothing is open/free or > delivered. The only thing thats occurred is its controlled by a handful of > idiots that got no business controlling that problem domain and they cant > even deliver on their valed masquerade of who they are, what they are > doing, what they promise to their users. > > > The only authority they have is that granted to them, by consensus, by the > community. > > > > As a result, nothing gets done. And all intent of this user ME is tossed > into the rubbush including my credentials. Maybe I am just a waste. > > I have never been able to model java annotations the way I dreamed. its > never happened becausze I committed to the frameworks and the authorities > promoting them claiming they are the best thing since sliced bread. I do > wonder why you would put tynamo on your website as a viable option when > they are holding that thing down with intentional build problems preventing > anyone from successfully checking it out, building clean, running and > modeling a website. I have bitched and moaned over the years having come > from the MIT Xwindows day when everything worked and we cold trust american > engineering. > > > I doubt the problems are intentional. We are all faced with the task of > balancing our work with our open source contributions. Do you think > Tapestry 5.4 would take this long if I could work on it 100% time? > > There has been an invasion of nasty insects that have literally ruined > engineering and open source. Open source is closed source. The pundits are > running the show and speak at all the conferences with impunity. > > > The correct reaction to poor open source is to move elsewhere, or even > create a competitor. I think the GitHub model is better in many ways than > the Apache model, in that it is easier, even encouraged, to fork and > improve (and then send a push request back). On the other hand, you see > much more abandonware on GitHub than in Apache projects. > > > > I am not just some idiot that cannot write code. If it could have been > done it owld already have. There are serious show stopping forces of > intentional incompetence that thrive in the current release of binaries > that make modeling open source software physically impossible. > > > I wouldn't throw the word "intentional" around. I strongly doubt anyone is > breaking the build, or writing bad code, just to spite you (or anyone > else). Again, it comes down to time and, in some cases, talent. Not > maliciousness. > > > > > Why am I writing to you ? Because I see a serious problem that remains > unresolved. Third world poverty is running the show and its seriously > abusive. The argument ocld be made to invalidate me but in all reality my > argument is valid and my claims backed by dysfunction andf failure of open > source. > > > I do not accept any of your basic premises. > > > > Why does it have to be only a handful make it thru. > > I am not sure the open source authority you currently own is about to try > and change things either. It would be nice. To slam some of these > interceptors of American technology, who abuse americans and spit in our > faces with disrespect... and build them OFF the turf where they belong > because they have no right to be oiperating the turf when they have > intentionally failed to deliver anything. > > taking tynamo off your website as a supported option would be a start. > Alejandro and Kalle are dirtbags. They cant release anything. They never > did and years will pass and they never will release anything that can be > checked out, built and run and used to model websites in any normal > functional reliable expected capacity. > > > It's not just "my" web site, Tapestry is a group effort. A discussion > about whether Tynamo is viable and should be listed on the Tapestry wiki is > not something to be done in private by me. Take your concerns, more > respectfully, to the Tapestry developer list. > > > as for webnsites thast make common living impossible... like > http://pets.oodle.com whereby I cannot even post an ad to sella pet due > to their websites MySQL errors, their lack of support or care for that > matter and ignorance? There are tons of these out there. And the internet > ruins because of incompetent hotshots trying to steal the turf and claim > ownership. > > > There is endless competition for even the most mundane web sites; find an > alternative that works for it. Blog about it, direct traffic to it. > > > > I would like to know if open source will ever be predictably brought back > under control by us again? Maybe it never was under control and never will > be. > > I just am sick over the fact that I look at myself and see I am absolutely > useless... when I could be modeling the real world in one fashion or > another to make the world a better place and it has been open source that > has prevented me fro doing so. > > > Open source has not prevented you from doing anything. You have chosen > certain tools (Tynamo, apparently) that don't meet your expectations. > Well, I daily use any number of tools that don't meet mine. I either find > new ones I like more, or I write my own. None of this is rocket science, it > is just engineering discipline. > > > > It isnt that difficult. And it shouldnt have to be this difficult. But it > is. And its impossible. And I see the internet becoming worse as more > control is acquired by the wrong forces making everything impossible. > > I woudl like to revisit tapestry and tynamo to model some websites but I > am discouraged. > > Do you have any suggestions for me to remain independent of bad influences > on technology (as kalle and alejandro have been historically for years) ... > about any good independxcent frameworks to use to model websites with? All > I wanted was to focus on business logic. But it seems I need to write my > own framework in order to do so. I did that once for raytheon... my own > mini hibernate and set of crud pages. > > > Again, I have problems with your basic premise. There is an amazing wealth > of technology out there, and quite a bit that is both innovative, easy to > use, well supported, and well documented. You may want to look beyond Java. > You may want to rethink your ideas of how to "model websites". I'm > personally excited by Clojure, ReactJS, and AngularJS. > > I have been in a similar situation to yours recently. I was using a > Clojure database tool named Korma. It made certain things easy, but had > some odd dependencies, and limited documentation, and very little developer > community. Eventually I hit a brick wall ... I couldn't get it to do quite > what I wanted and couldn't get any support. Fortunately, I had a good test > suite, and I found a different and simpler tool, HoneySQL, and quickly > shifted my code over. It was painful to backtrack, but now my code is > simpler and easier to understand. No amount of angry missives would have > helped. > > > > I have just about given up. > > If you got any new ideas about what to use to model websites with today I > would appreciate that. > > > I think you should start here, > http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy, to change your > thinking about the right way to build software. I think you'll find that a > lot of technologies, even including Tapestry, are a bit "complected" (a > term explained in the video). > > > > -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com @hlship
