On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi, > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you call > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and say > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from granting > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right questions > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know about)! > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should wait a > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will get > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some more > active users over the next year or so. > > Thanks again for being a great mentor, > > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different! Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the general list on incubator? If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get more mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion like this; good to have variety of opinion. Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too. S > Hans > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stack > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <[email protected]> wrote: > > > James, > > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the last > > time. There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk as > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive. But I guess > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as > Cloudera, > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps. But the other reason > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as an > > example, with other open source projects. Our committers have not had as > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity and > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large > enough > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open source > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC, etc. > > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in the > > US. But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself. Plus, > most > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new > developers > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have in > > Java. So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community. > > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and open > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the company > of > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious path to > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned. It seems that satisfying the > > decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that they > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be > crazy > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an incredible > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds of > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database technology, > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers compared > to > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying with > the > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in the > > Big Data world). Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing support > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum. Maybe > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like > Trafodion > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make it > > ready for it. > > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle. From what I understand all projects are > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors. We have had Stack who has done a great > job. > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project and > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have accomplished > to > > qualify for TLP. We have requested more mentors, but the same decision > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests. So, go figure how > the > > Apache foundation and its community works. > > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my own > > frustrations. These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an > > individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should. > > > > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective. > > * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be in > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd consider > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that incubator is > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these times). > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time around? > (James, you interested?) > * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just provide > guidance. > * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one (Apache), > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies' resources. > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask why > bother. > * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when you > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise. > * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities > first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is dodgy > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is. > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but as > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is diverse > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While we > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members, how > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any users > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly. > > Thanks, > S > > > > > > > Rohit > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James Taylor [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation > > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no > Esgyn, > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question > > > comes up on the general incubator list. > > > > > > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation? > > >
