Hi Chris, I fully agree with you, an agreed upon set of macros that is then used within our presentations is probably the best the way to go.
eCharts looks nice, even though their homepage almost gave me a nervous breakdown :) Best, Sönke On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 1:45 PM Christofer Dutz <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Sönke, > > I have recently noticed, that it's even simpler to add extensions to > asciidoctor. I did nothing other than that with my static jar (did that cause > I couldn't release the artifact myself and that was the easy way out) > > However I still have to find out how to do that in practice. In general you > can provide your own macros that handle generation of blocks, I've seen it > before and just have to find it again. > We could whip up a set of macros that we agreed upon and release that and use > those in our presentations. > > Also can you always embed custom HTML by wrapping that in "++++" blocks ... > I'm using that in my latest talk slides to use other chart libraries. > > And regarding charts, eating your own dogfood etc. ... writing an extension > for Apache ECharts [1] could be a good option. > > > Chris > > > [1] http://echarts.apache.org/ > > > Am 04.03.19, 12:48 schrieb "Sönke Liebau" > <[email protected]>: > > Heyho, > > I'll try to take a step backwards to look at the large picture here > for a second. > > In general I really love what you have done Chris! Having everything > in an asciidoc file is great and building with Maven, I think most > people can get behind that (certainly more than for any other solution > :) ). > > Before talking about specific implementations for charts, graphs, etc. > I think we should maybe try and discuss the overall design of what we > will be trying to build and how we want to organize it. > > As I said, I'd be on board with Maven and Asciidoctor as vehicles. > Reveal.js I'll need to look at further, but the target format is > probably a less final decision than the format that we maintain our > content in anyway. > > For graphs etc. I personally think that the target should be some sort > of plugin system (Asciidoctor already has one, maybe we don't need > anything beyond that) that we can use to slowly grow a curated list of > acceptable formats to create content in. > > For diagrams there is a huge list of services that we could look at > out there: cacoo, draw.io, dia, yEd, gliffy, LucidChart, ... > > We should probably come up with a more or less formalized way of > accepting new formats to avoid needlessly growing the list, but I also > see no need to be too restrictive here. > > Best regards, > Sönke > > > On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 7:59 PM Lars Francke <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Thank you for sharing Christofer. I need a quiet minute to look at that. > > > > What I like is that it builds easily using Maven, content in Asciidoc, > > easily versionable etc., the speaker notes are good > > I see that reveal.js also does PDF export. > > > > The only thing I don't immediately like are the diagram options. I think > > they are pretty...ugly. > > > > I used the same example[1] to play around a bit and newer versions work > as > > well. > > > > One thing I haven't tried yet is how to "depend" on other content. If we > > have a ZooKeeper Training which we'd like to include in a Hadoop > ecosystem > > training for example. And would all our content be in Maven projects? > > > > I believe it'd be great if we could have "content-only" projects and > then > > other projects that do the packaging/converting/distributing part. > > > > Cheers, > > Lars > > > > [1] < > > > https://github.com/asciidoctor/asciidoctor-maven-examples/tree/master/asciidoc-to-revealjs-example > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:53 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Yes, for me it works. Thank you > > > > > > пн, 25 февр. 2019 г., 20:54 Christofer Dutz > <[email protected]>: > > > > > > > Does it work now? > > > > Even if I said "everyone with a link" slak keeps on asking me to > grant > > > > permissions :/ > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 25.02.19, 18:47 schrieb "Dmitriy Pavlov" <[email protected]>: > > > > > > > > Hi Chris, could you please add view permission for the google > > > document? > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > пн, 25 февр. 2019 г. в 20:44, Christofer Dutz < > > > > [email protected]>: > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > I'm not suggesting to build something ... it's sort of already > > > there: > > > > > Here an export of one of my current presentation template: > > > > > > > > > > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pZ5l9X__gTM4vg2PJRbc-0GXuEf058aI > > > > > > > > > > It uses Asciidoc and I quite like that in general for all > sorts of > > > > use > > > > > cases. > > > > > Markdown to me appears a lot less powerful and extensible > (but that > > > > just > > > > > might be me dropping the ball on that quite some time ago) > > > > > Doc-book and Latech I remember being quite low level and I > don't > > > know > > > > > reStructuredText. > > > > > > > > > > Regarding images I started adopting PlantUML and DITAA quite > some > > > > time ago > > > > > and quite recently am updating to SVGBob > > > > > https://github.com/ivanceras/svgbob > > > > > > > > > > Regarding your format ... just have a look at the content of > > > > > src/main/asciidoc/index.adoc > > > > > In the Zip file ... that's pretty much what you describe. > > > > > Most of these require some installed open-source tools to > render > > > > images > > > > > correctly and I have started setting up some init scripts to > > > install > > > > > missing things, but that still needs quite a lot of love to > be in a > > > > > releasable state. > > > > > Currently it's just something I use myself and the scripts are > > > more a > > > > > reminder to myself of how to install things. > > > > > > > > > > Please have a look. > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 25.02.19, 17:42 schrieb "Sönke Liebau" < > > > > [email protected] > > > > > .INVALID>: > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Mirko, I don't think we should head down the > route > > > > of > > > > > creating a full blown publishing framework or similar. > > > > > > > > > > The issue, at least to my mind, is divided into two main > > > things: > > > > > - text content (which I consider to include tables, lists, > > > etc.) > > > > > - graphical content > > > > > > > > > > For text content there are quite a few good options out > there, > > > we > > > > > probably just need to conduct a hunt for the main > competitors > > > and > > > > > agree on one that meets most needs. Otoh the main ones are > > > > probably: > > > > > - asciidoc > > > > > - markdown > > > > > - doc-book > > > > > - latex > > > > > - reStructuredText > > > > > > > > > > For graphical content my personal opinion is that the > > > > possibilities > > > > > are simply endless and we should not necessarily be > trying to > > > > restrict > > > > > what people may want to use either. For the "compiled" > > > > presentation in > > > > > the end I think the common denominator will always be "a > > > > picture" (no > > > > > other way to express a photo or a logo) and I personally > think > > > > it is > > > > > fine. > > > > > The way of getting at this image is what I think we > should be > > > > focusing > > > > > on, so the basic idea would be to have a text > representation of > > > > the > > > > > image in version control and at "compile" time create the > > > actual > > > > image > > > > > that is then part of the release. > > > > > For the "text representation" part there are a lot of > possible > > > > > options, what I have used a lot in the past is for > example: > > > > > - websequencediagrams [1] > > > > > - draw.io [2] > > > > > > > > > > But since there are so many services out there that offer > > > > something > > > > > similar I think this should really be something > extensible so > > > > that > > > > > people can develop converters for their own formats. For > the > > > > Apache > > > > > training content we should then probably have a rule that > only > > > > > converters that are part of the official repo may be used > for > > > > content, > > > > > which allows us to curate a little. > > > > > > > > > > So basically in version control slides might then look > like > > > this: > > > > > > > > > > == Slide One > > > > > > > > > > * Foo > > > > > * Bar > > > > > * World > > > > > > > > > > == Slide Two > > > > > >>> imageContent(websequencediagram) > > > > > User->Server: Connect > > > > > Server->User: Respond > > > > > <<< > > > > > > > > > > Whereas the content of the wsd part would be replaced by > the > > > > > corresponding picture when building the actual slides. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope that made a little sense? Otherwise I am happy to > > > elaborate > > > > > further :) > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Sönke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://www.websequencediagrams.com/ > > > > > [2] https://www.draw.io/ > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:17 PM Mirko Kämpf < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > regarding content versioning, I suggest to search > formar like > > > > > doc-book xml > > > > > > (it can be anything which allows Separation of content > and > > > > Style). > > > > > > With this, we can generate PDF, PPT, > Google-Presentations for > > > > final > > > > > > customization. > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is, how to convert a result from a creativity > > > session > > > > > incl. media > > > > > > content / sketches / fotos back into such a fundamental > > > format. > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest not to try to build another CMS or publishing > > > > Framework, > > > > > but > > > > > > rather Focus on the process of content creation/Update. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Mirko > > > > > > > > > > > > Lars Francke <[email protected]> schrieb am Sa., > 23. > > > Feb. > > > > > 2019, 16:23: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2019 at 7:31 PM Sharan Foga < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2019/02/22 23:12:29, Lars Francke < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > During the DISCUSS and VOTE threads I tried to > postpone > > > > any > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > about the actual content and technical bits but > now > > > > would be a > > > > > great > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > to start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that Dmitriy was eager to get started and > > > > Christofer > > > > > also > > > > > > > > explained > > > > > > > > > his workflow briefly. Maybe you could go into more > > > > detail? > > > > > > > > > Christofer demonstrated his own tooling to us and > I > > > > really > > > > > liked it. > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > could be a great start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry this is going to be a bit longer and > maybe a > > > > bit > > > > > "rambling". > > > > > > > > Take > > > > > > > > > it as you will. I just needed to write it down > once :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When we've done trainings so far they usually > consist > > > of > > > > a > > > > > couple of > > > > > > > > things: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Slides (for us usually in Powerpoint) > > > > > > > > > * Whiteboard sessions (usually the most > interesting > > > parts > > > > > because they > > > > > > > > > usually are the result of attendee > feedback/questions) > > > > > > > > > * Labs (the actual content, things that attendees > need > > > to > > > > > "solve"/do) > > > > > > > > > * Lab setup (especially for the larger distributed > > > > systems > > > > > getting a > > > > > > > > > realistic setup of the tools itself for all > attendees > > > > isn't > > > > > trivia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure I'm missing something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Lars - this is good. Off the top of my head a > > > > couple of > > > > > things > > > > > > > came > > > > > > > > to mind - the first is testing (to see how much > attendees > > > > have > > > > > learned > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > this could be linked to certification which I think > was > > > > > mentioned in one > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the threads) and the second was a way of collecting > > > > feedback > > > > > about the > > > > > > > > training - so perhaps a survey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those are good points I didn't think of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tests we have never done by choice but I see that > people > > > > might be > > > > > > > interested in them and surveys are something that we > > > probably > > > > > should have > > > > > > > done ourselves a long time ago already. So: > Definitely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What should our scope be? > > > > > > > > > Our initial idea centered around Slides and Labs. > It > > > > would be > > > > > great to > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > have something that makes the Labs setup easier > but in > > > > our > > > > > experience > > > > > > > > > that's pretty hard (e.g. corporate firewalls don't > > > allow > > > > > access to X or > > > > > > > > Y) > > > > > > > > > to make generic (that shouldn't stop us from > trying!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Slides: > > > > > > > > > I'd love to have a workflow where I can design > slides > > > > > entirelly in > > > > > > > > > Asciidoc. That makes them easily versionable and > > > > composable. > > > > > Should we > > > > > > > > > allow multiple formats? If we decide on a > text-only > > > > format and > > > > > someone > > > > > > > > > donates a bunch of courses in Powerpoint. Would > we deny > > > > that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that we would want to accept contribution > that is > > > > > relevant. There > > > > > > > > may be an overhead to convert the content into a > more > > > > generic > > > > > format but > > > > > > > > that's doable especially if it encourages > contributions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I assume you meant "any contribution"? > > > > > > > In general I agree but any binary format (e.g. > Powerpoint - > > > > I'll > > > > > call it > > > > > > > binary even though it's really XML now but it's pretty > > > > useless for > > > > > what I'm > > > > > > > going to mention or PDF) has the problem that doing > reviews > > > > is > > > > > tedious to > > > > > > > impossible. There's no good way (I know of) to create > diffs > > > > for > > > > > example and > > > > > > > people on Linux are left out entirely for Powerpoint. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I currently believe having "one true format" for all > of > > > them > > > > is a > > > > > good idea > > > > > > > (I am happy to be convinced otherwise), maybe with a > kind > > > of > > > > > "staging" area > > > > > > > of accepted contributons that have yet to be > converted and > > > > are not > > > > > coverd > > > > > > > by "quality guarantees". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Labs: > > > > > > > > > Similarly for Labs we've had a good experience > with > > > > (e.g.) > > > > > > > > > https://antora.org/ which also allows to create > > > > documentation > > > > > in > > > > > > > > Asciidoc > > > > > > > > > and create a website out of it. But there's lots > of > > > > ideas on > > > > > how to > > > > > > > > improve > > > > > > > > > this (e.g. Notebooks in Zeppelin) and it'll also > be way > > > > > different > > > > > > > > depending > > > > > > > > > on the training topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Audience/Customizability/Composability > > > > > > > > > I would assume that our trainings will also be > used by > > > > > non-commercial > > > > > > > > folks > > > > > > > > > or people needing to give a training in-house at > their > > > > > companies. For > > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > a prepared "deck" with ASF branding is fine but > others > > > > might > > > > > want to > > > > > > > > > incorporate these slides into their own work (see > the > > > > Legal > > > > > thread) and > > > > > > > > > also compose their own out of smaller > "components". > > > > > > > > > So for me a good thing would be if we produce > smaller > > > > > "chapters" of > > > > > > > > things > > > > > > > > > that can then be composed however one would like > and to > > > > make > > > > > our > > > > > > > product > > > > > > > > > customizabile (e.g. custom header, footer, > background > > > > colors > > > > > etc.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache vs. non-Apache // Product vs. non-product > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't want to limit us to Apache products. I > don't > > > > see a > > > > > reason > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > also talk about 3rd party tools. Especially if > they are > > > > tightly > > > > > > > > integrated > > > > > > > > > into the ecosystem (e.g. the ELK stack is often > used > > > > alongside > > > > > Hadoop). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 I like the idea and it also could make our > content > > > > valuable > > > > > to others > > > > > > > > outside the ASF > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also don't see a reason to only focus on > > > > > < > > > > > > > > https://maps.google.com/?q=%3E+I+also+don't+see+a+reason+to+only+focus+on+&entry=gmail&source=g > > > > >single > > > > > products. A training > > > > > > > > > could focus on "IoT" and cover lots of products. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 this will also give the Apache projects > visibility of > > > > others > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > same domain. I'm not really sure how cross > pollinated our > > > > > projects are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a similar vein it doesn't always have to be > > > technical > > > > > products. I've > > > > > > > > > already been approached from multiple people > about "The > > > > Apache > > > > > Way" > > > > > > > > > presentations. Now whether they make more sense in > > > > ComDev is > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > decided. > > > > > > > > > Maybe Sharan can weigh in? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Training would be a great place for > managing the > > > > Apache > > > > > Way > > > > > > > > content. In ComDev we've tried to gather and > collate this > > > > type > > > > > of content > > > > > > > > and have ended up with a page of different > presentation > > > > slides. > > > > > Each > > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > has a different spin on it - so creating something > > > > standard as a > > > > > nice off > > > > > > > > the shelf template that anyone can use will be > great. And > > > > I'm > > > > > happy to > > > > > > > > ensure we maintain a link and communicate with > ComDev > > > > regularly > > > > > so > > > > > > > > potential contributors know about what we are doing > here > > > in > > > > > Training. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, that's good! > > > > > > > As you said: There's a dozen of those out there now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lars > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Sharan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Lars > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Sönke Liebau > > > > > Partner > > > > > Tel. +49 179 7940878 <+49%20179%207940878> > > > > > OpenCore GmbH & Co. KG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 8 - 22880 > Wedel - > > > > Germany > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Sönke Liebau > Partner > Tel. +49 179 7940878 > OpenCore GmbH & Co. KG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 8 - 22880 Wedel - Germany > > -- Sönke Liebau Partner Tel. +49 179 7940878 OpenCore GmbH & Co. KG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 8 - 22880 Wedel - Germany
