-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, March 07, 2016 3:17:05 PM Stephen Hauskins wrote: > Hello All > > I concur with Jim O'Dell. I would like to add that it would be nice if you > could use docker with VCL. > > VCL documentation in terms of installing etc is really lacking as has > already been pointed out. > > Also, as Jim voiced it would be nice to see some images (CentOS with R, et > al) that could be grabbed and > used with VCL.
Having some base images already configured would be really helpful. Again, we'd have a problem with licensing distributing them from ASF, but they could be hosted elsewhere. This was something discussed a long time ago, but never acted on. One issue is getting ssh keys in them, but even if they could be downloaded and only have a few manual steps to pull them in to VCL, it would be helpful. > The newest installer script with 2.4 does a very good job. > > > > Learn about more ITS services in PBSci <http://its.pbsci.ucsc.edu> > > Stephen Hauskins > Purveyor of fine computing services > > 831-334-3961 > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 2:38 PM, James O'Dell <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > > > I think there is interest in the project. People have contacted me asking > > for help. > > But, most people can't get over the initial install. (You almost need to > > be a developer to actually get it working from scratch.) > > > > Is there anyway we can simplify the install? Or, provide pre-built VCL > > vm's based on CentOS? > > > > The more people we get involved, the more activity we'll see. > > > > I, personally, would like a yum repository. I rely heavily on 'yum' repos > > to build/maintain systems. > > > > I'm more than a little afraid my next update will break my system, and a > > stable repository would take away some of those > > concerns. Last time, changes to the DB's schema broke my system big time. > > > > Trying to work around foreign key limitations to fix a broken tables make > > things even harder. I'd dump the foreign key restrictions. > > > > I build/maintain Moodle for Cal State Fullerton, and Cal State Los > > Angeles. I'm used to working the DB. > > Moodle doesn't use foreign keys even though tables reference each others > > table's ids. Just to avoid the problem. > > > > Moodle also uses 'git'. I'm used to 'git'. Maybe some would prefer we to > > work with a 'git' repository? > > Create 2 branches - stable, and current. Moodle also has acceptance tests > > they run between versions. > > Moodle also has a schema test to validate the DB schema. (sounds silly - > > but it's come in handy more than once) > > > > I run VCL for Cal state Fullerton and University of California Irvine. I > > need to upgrade the systems. > > I'm expecting problems when I do. > > > > Btw, although I wrote the extension for MacOS X. I no longer use it. There > > just wasn't enough demand. > > Currently, the biggest growing demand is for Mac machines to run windows > > VM's. (instead of the other way around) > > I'm see a lot more Mac notebooks/ipads on campus these days > > > > Also, I have a request from UCI. They would like to integrate Guacamole( > > http://guac-dev.org/open-source) into VCL. > > They have a lot of Mac users who don't want to install an RDP client from > > Microsoft. Has this idea been approached already? > > > > Just my 2 cents, > > > > __Jim O'Dell > > > > On 3/7/2016 1:02 PM, Aaron Peeler wrote: > >> I'm copying the user mailing list - likely many more subscribers that > >> are not on the dev list. Maybe even a few interested in getting > >> involved but just don't know how. > >> > >> Folks, Please read the comments that Andy and Josh have made. This is > >> a call for help in re-vitalizing the Apache VCL community. > >> > >> (Andy - thanks for starting this thread.) > >> > >> Best Regards, > >> Aaron > >> > >> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Josh Thompson <[email protected]> > >> > >> wrote: > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >>> Hash: SHA1 > >>> > >>> Folks - Please speak up in this thread! If you are hesitant to because > >>> you > >>> think your comments may be too critical, we would rather hear them and > >>> be able > >>> to improve the health of the project rather than not hear them and let > >>> it > >>> continue to degrade in health. > >>> > >>> On Thursday, March 03, 2016 11:02:19 AM Andy Kurth wrote: > >>>> Hello Apache VCL dev community, > >>>> Back in December, I started a thread for the discussion of that month's > >>>> board report. In that thread, I brought up concerns I had regarding > >>>> the > >>>> state of the development community's health. Please review the thread: > >>>> http://markmail.org/message/3oz7rhy5fyv57nxt > >>>> > >>>> Please also review the board report that was submitted: > >>>> > >>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/VCL/2015-12-16+Apache+VCL+B > >>>> oard+ Report > >>>> > >>>> We have another board report coming up in March. There is a tool > >>>> that project chairs use to help prepare the report which gathers some > >>>> information and comes up with a project "health score". For Apache > >>>> VCL, it > >>>> > >>>> displays the following: > >>>>> Apache VCL: Unhealthy > >>>>> Health score: -0.20 > >>>>> Score note: Less than one email per day to all MLs combined in the > >>>>> past > >>>>> quarter (-1.00) > >>>>> Score note: No new members added to the LDAP committee group for more > >>>>> than > >>>>> 2 years (-2.00) > >>>>> Score note: No new committers invited for more than a year (-1.00) > >>>> > >>>> If our reports keep looking like the above, we'll definitely be getting > >>> > >>> the > >>> board's attention. > >>> > >>> There are several indicators one could consider to gauge health of a > >>> > >>>> project. List traffic is one. If you look at the graph at > >>>> http://vcl.markmail.org/, you can see traffic has been markedly lower > >>>> in > >>>> recent months. This includes messages sent to the user, dev, and > >>>> commits > >>>> lists. If looks even worse if you look at user list traffic alone: > >>>> http://vcl.markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Auser > >>>> > >>>> Another indicator is whether or not the number of committers and PMC > >>>> members increases. This has proven to be difficult for VCL. As I > >>>> think > >>>> Josh correctly pointed out in the thread referenced above, the nature > >>>> of > >>>> VCL and its predominant audience (higher ed) may be factors which have > >>>> made > >>>> it difficult to attract new developers who make consistent > >>>> contributions. > >>>> I personally do not feel that regularly increasing the number of > >>>> committers > >>>> says a whole lot about the health of the project. A project can very > >>>> healthy with a stable and small number of committers as long as they > >>>> are > >>>> regularly contributing. That said, the last time we added a committer > >>>> was > >>>> over 2 years ago and I don't know of any prospects. Regardless of how > >>>> heavily you weight this indicator, it doesn't look good. > >>>> > >>>> In the past, some have approached these issues by thinking "hey, let's > >>>> just > >>>> try to find some more committers." This hasn't worked. We need a new > >>>> and > >>>> better approach if this project is to remain viable. We could start by > >>>> working on areas we have direct control over and improving the > >>>> ancillary > >>>> details related to the project. Below are some ideas I can think of: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Increase involvement from existing committers > >>>> In the thread from December, I was hoping to gauge people's concern and > >>>> elicit thoughts and ideas from others. Unfortunately, only two people > >>>> responded and no ideas were shared regarding how to improve the > >>>> community. > >>>> > >>>> Based on the counts from Subversion and http://vcl.markmail.org/, here > >>>> is > >>>> the total number of messages sent and commits made from the project's > >>>> current committers from 1/1/2015 until last week (I started typing this > >>>> up > >>>> a while ago): > >>>> > >>>> Comitter Messages Message Percent Commits Commit Percent > >>>> Josh Thompson 542 49% 129 46% > >>>> Andy Kurth 414 38% 124 44% > >>>> Aaron Peeler 107 10% 18 6% > >>>> Aaron Coburn 14 1% 0 0% > >>>> Dmitri Chebotarov 14 1% 4 1% > >>>> Young-Hyun Oh 7 1% 4 1% > >>>> James O'Dell 0 0% 0 0% > >>>> David Hutchins 0 0% 0 0% > >>>> > >>>> There are some threads such as this one and release discussions that I > >>>> feel > >>>> all committers should participate in. By participate, I mean more than > >>>> simply replying "+1" or "good point, I agree". > >>>> > >>>> Increasing participation from committers may also have a snowball > >>>> effect > >>>> for others lurking on the lists and new subscribers. People may be > >>>> more > >>>> inclined to participate if the threads if they appear to be a more of a > >>>> community discussion (which they all are) rather two people > >>>> communicating > >>>> back and forth. > >>>> > >>>> I think we need to come to an understanding regarding what is expected > >>>> of > >>>> committers. We also need to figure out how to address situations where > >>>> committers are not participating. > >>> > >>> Coming up with what we (the VCL community) should expect of committers > >>> would > >>> be a good start. We should hash that out in a separate thread and then > >>> write > >>> up the results on a page under the Community section of the website. > >>> Some > >>> initial ideas that should go in that thread are coding, documentation, > >>> and > >>> list involvement. > >>> > >>> 2. Documentation > >>> > >>>> Before someone could ever make development contributions to the > >>>> project, > >>>> they would need to be able to install VCL and have a good understanding > >>>> of > >>>> it. This isn't easy because the documentation is poor. If someone > >>>> does > >>>> gain a solid understanding of administering VCL and could potentially > >>>> contribute back, our development documentation doesn't provide much > >>>> information about where to get started or about the inner workings. > >>>> Improving our documentation will help increase the adoption of VCL and > >>>> also > >>>> make it easier for people to contribute. > >>> > >>> We've always struggled with documentation. There are a number of > >>> reasons for > >>> that - we're coders, not writers; little time to do it; expectation of > >>> others > >>> creating docs; lack of understanding by others to be able to create docs > >>> - but > >>> as you pointed out, people aren't going to get involved if they don't > >>> understand how. We need to expand the "Getting Involved" part of our > >>> website > >>> to have a clear guide on getting involved with development. This needs > >>> to > >>> include a roadmap, clear explanation of how to work on JIRA issues, and > >>> clear > >>> documentation about the code structure and how someone would start > >>> developing > >>> on it. > >>> > >>> 3. Vision & Roadmap > >>> > >>>> In order to get voluntary development contributions, a project has to > >>>> be > >>>> appealing to developers. In order to be appealing, they have to know > >>>> where > >>>> it's going. Wherever that is, it needs to be interesting and useful. > >>>> We > >>>> don't have much of a roadmap or a vision of how VCL will look in the > >>>> future. We should define and communicate a roadmap and vision. > >>> > >>> This is another area we've alway struggled with. I think part of that > >>> is the > >>> fault of the committers in not doing a better job of seeking out what > >>> the > >>> community of VCL users would like to see in VCL. I also think part of > >>> it is > >>> how slow we are to get releases out. They don't come out fast enough > >>> for > >>> people to really be able to look forward to new features being added. > >>> > >>> 4. Lack of development transparency > >>> I think this is another thing that's caused problems with involvement. > >>> Those > >>> of use who are committers haven't done a good job of discussing what we > >>> are > >>> working on and seeking feedback on it. Personally, I know this is a > >>> problem > >>> for me mainly because of the time it takes to write up what I'm doing. > >>> > >>> 5. User list discussions > >>> I don't know why people that use VCL seem to be somewhat silent on our > >>> list. > >>> Maybe we need to include something on our download page that just asks > >>> people > >>> to ping the list when they download and set up VCL just so we know that > >>> people > >>> are really using it. Doing web searches of VCL shows a number of places > >>> using > >>> it from which I don't remember ever hearing anything. It's an open > >>> source > >>> project. So, that's fine if people don't want to say they're using it, > >>> but it > >>> would be helpful and give us a better understanding of how useful the > >>> project > >>> really is. > >>> > >>> 6. Language and Architecture > >>> VCL is written in PHP (with some javascript) and perl. The frontend > >>> utilizes > >>> an old architecture of web development where the UI is largely generated > >>> server side. PHP, perl, and the current frontend architecture are older > >>> and > >>> less popular now. I'm not suggesting we change things now (nor do we > >>> have the > >>> development time to do so), but it may be a contributing factor as to > >>> why we > >>> aren't picking up more committers now. > >>> > >>> Starting with these points and hopefully others share more ideas, we may > >>> > >>>> be > >>>> able to make the project more appealing and improve its health. I'm > >>>> not > >>>> willing to do this alone, and it wouldn't be in accordance with "the > >>>> Apache > >>>> way" for Josh Thompson and I to do this alone. We both work for the > >>>> same > >>>> organization and organizational diversity is something we need to > >>>> consider > >>>> as well. If there simply isn't interest by others in sharing ideas and > >>>> contributing, that's fine. However, if that's the case we will need to > >>>> have a frank discussion about the future of the project and its > >>>> relationship with Apache. > >>>> > >>>> Thank You, > >>>> Andy > >>> > >>> Andy - Thanks for starting this thread. It is a tough discussion to > >>> really > >>> analyze how we are doing as a project, which largely reflects on us as > >>> committers, but we're definitely to a point where we need to have the > >>> discussion. > >>> > >>> Josh > >>> - -- > >>> - ------------------------------- > >>> Josh Thompson > >>> VCL Developer > >>> North Carolina State University > >>> > >>> my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu > >>> > >>> All electronic mail messages in connection with State business which > >>> are sent to or received by this account are subject to the NC Public > >>> Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties. > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > >>> Version: GnuPG v2 > >>> > >>> iEYEARECAAYFAlbd6SwACgkQV/LQcNdtPQOl9wCeIRlktxeLX1i4nLE9Iz3/F0AP > >>> z7UAn3clkULJYkKBLWBRlaae5aGRI/Ep > >>> =MSg5 > >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - -- - ------------------------------- Josh Thompson VCL Developer North Carolina State University my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu All electronic mail messages in connection with State business which are sent to or received by this account are subject to the NC Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlbjOzsACgkQV/LQcNdtPQMTfACeOyaMeK6HHgNzAQJ07C17GqvT O9sAnRm1X/KI9AQdNQYfTY7Dzsg4d4z3 =kZ17 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
