-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Aaron,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. On Friday, March 11, 2016 11:18:45 AM Andy Kurth wrote: > Hi Aaron, > Thanks for your ideas. Comments below... > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Aaron Coburn <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I also agree with Jim O'Dell about the installation issues. > > > > In terms of revitalizing the community, I have a few additional thoughts: > > > > 1) At one point there was a bimonthly phone call to talk about the VCL. Is > > that still happening? If it is, it should be announced on the list in > > order > > to attract more people to the community. I realize that the "Apache Way" > > means having discussion on the mailing list ("if it wasn't on the list, it > > didn't happen"), but as long as the call isn't used to make decisions, it > > could be a good way to support new users and attract potential users. > > A little background... As some people know, Josh, Aaron P., and I all work > for NCSU. We have some close contacts at IBM and IBM has done a lot of > great work promoting VCL. IBM also organizes collaboration among some of > their university customers. One of these efforts was a monthly or > bi-monthly call to discuss various aspects of VCL initiated by IBM. These > calls are no longer happening. I think the reason is mainly due to > organizational changes IBM made and time scarcity. > > These calls were never directly tied to the ASF and I had some conflicting > thoughts about them. On the one hand, they were well intentioned, useful, > and collaboration is good. On the other hand, I didn't want to make it > seem as though we were excluding anyone from the general Apache VCL > community. > > That said, there's nothing stopping us from organizing our own calls or > other means of collaboration such as a Google Hangout. The "if it wasn't > on the list, it didn't happen" concept was emphasized by our mentors during > the project's incubation phase. We can't let this stand in the way of > collaboration. As long as any call is open to everyone and we publicly and > transparently make publish it's outcomes, I think it would be fine. Hangouts might be a good idea. Another way to use them might be going through the process of adding a new feature. This would help guide people in how to work with the code. > > 2) In addition to documentation, blog posts with more narrative use cases > > would be extremely helpful for new users. > > Great idea. I referenced this in a previous reply to Jim O. Great idea. I'm a terrible blogger. :( > > 3) Conference presentations -- this is how a lot of people learn about new > > projects. If the VCL isn't being represented at conferences, the community > > will not grow very quickly, if at all. I know the VCL was represented at > > ApacheCon (North America) in 2013, but I don't believe it has been since. > > If users do present about the VCL, it would be helpful to link to any > > slides/video on the user list. > > By all means, anyone presenting should share it on the user list. I have > also recently discovered a handful of papers/publications related to VCL I > had no idea existed. Examples: > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7148478 > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=6575324 > > > 4) Social media -- does anyone tweet about the VCL? Another good idea. I'm also a terrible tweeter. :/ > > Regards, > > Aaron Coburn > > > > > On Mar 7, 2016, at 6:17 PM, Stephen Hauskins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > > I concur with Jim O'Dell. I would like to add that it would be nice if > > > > you > > > > > could use docker with VCL. > > > > > > VCL documentation in terms of installing etc is really lacking as has > > > already been pointed out. > > > > > > Also, as Jim voiced it would be nice to see some images (CentOS with R, > > > > et > > > > > al) that could be grabbed and > > > used with VCL. > > > > > > The newest installer script with 2.4 does a very good job. > > > > > > > > > > > > Learn about more ITS services in PBSci <http://its.pbsci.ucsc.edu> > > > > > > Stephen Hauskins > > > Purveyor of fine computing services > > > > > > 831-334-3961 > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 2:38 PM, James O'Dell <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > >> Hello Everyone, > > >> > > >> I think there is interest in the project. People have contacted me > > > > asking > > > > >> for help. > > >> But, most people can't get over the initial install. (You almost need > > >> to > > >> be a developer to actually get it working from scratch.) > > >> > > >> Is there anyway we can simplify the install? Or, provide pre-built VCL > > >> vm's based on CentOS? > > >> > > >> The more people we get involved, the more activity we'll see. > > >> > > >> I, personally, would like a yum repository. I rely heavily on 'yum' > > > > repos > > > > >> to build/maintain systems. > > >> > > >> I'm more than a little afraid my next update will break my system, and > > >> a > > >> stable repository would take away some of those > > >> concerns. Last time, changes to the DB's schema broke my system big > > > > time. > > > > >> Trying to work around foreign key limitations to fix a broken tables > > > > make > > > > >> things even harder. I'd dump the foreign key restrictions. > > >> > > >> I build/maintain Moodle for Cal State Fullerton, and Cal State Los > > >> Angeles. I'm used to working the DB. > > >> Moodle doesn't use foreign keys even though tables reference each > > >> others > > >> table's ids. Just to avoid the problem. > > >> > > >> Moodle also uses 'git'. I'm used to 'git'. Maybe some would prefer we > > >> to > > >> work with a 'git' repository? > > >> Create 2 branches - stable, and current. Moodle also has acceptance > > > > tests > > > > >> they run between versions. > > >> Moodle also has a schema test to validate the DB schema. (sounds silly > > >> - > > >> but it's come in handy more than once) > > >> > > >> I run VCL for Cal state Fullerton and University of California Irvine. > > >> I > > >> need to upgrade the systems. > > >> I'm expecting problems when I do. > > >> > > >> Btw, although I wrote the extension for MacOS X. I no longer use it. > > > > There > > > > >> just wasn't enough demand. > > >> Currently, the biggest growing demand is for Mac machines to run > > >> windows > > >> VM's. (instead of the other way around) > > >> I'm see a lot more Mac notebooks/ipads on campus these days > > >> > > >> Also, I have a request from UCI. They would like to integrate > > >> Guacamole( > > >> http://guac-dev.org/open-source) into VCL. > > >> They have a lot of Mac users who don't want to install an RDP client > > > > from > > > > >> Microsoft. Has this idea been approached already? > > >> > > >> Just my 2 cents, > > >> > > >> __Jim O'Dell > > >> > > >> On 3/7/2016 1:02 PM, Aaron Peeler wrote: > > >>> I'm copying the user mailing list - likely many more subscribers that > > >>> are not on the dev list. Maybe even a few interested in getting > > >>> involved but just don't know how. > > >>> > > >>> Folks, Please read the comments that Andy and Josh have made. This is > > >>> a call for help in re-vitalizing the Apache VCL community. > > >>> > > >>> (Andy - thanks for starting this thread.) > > >>> > > >>> Best Regards, > > >>> Aaron > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Josh Thompson <[email protected]> > > >>> > > >>> wrote: > > >>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > >>>> Hash: SHA1 > > >>>> > > >>>> Folks - Please speak up in this thread! If you are hesitant to > > > > because > > > > >>>> you > > >>>> think your comments may be too critical, we would rather hear them > > >>>> and > > >>>> be able > > >>>> to improve the health of the project rather than not hear them and > > > > let it > > > > >>>> continue to degrade in health. > > >>>> > > >>>> On Thursday, March 03, 2016 11:02:19 AM Andy Kurth wrote: > > >>>>> Hello Apache VCL dev community, > > >>>>> Back in December, I started a thread for the discussion of that > > > > month's > > > > >>>>> board report. In that thread, I brought up concerns I had regarding > > > > the > > > > >>>>> state of the development community's health. Please review the > > > > thread: > > >>>>> http://markmail.org/message/3oz7rhy5fyv57nxt > > > > >>>>> Please also review the board report that was submitted: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/VCL/2015-12-16+Apache+VCL+Boar > > d+> > > >>>>> Report > > >>>>> > > >>>>> We have another board report coming up in March. There is a tool > > >>>>> that project chairs use to help prepare the report which gathers > > >>>>> some > > >>>>> information and comes up with a project "health score". For Apache > > >>>>> VCL, it > > >>>>> > > >>>>> displays the following: > > >>>>>> Apache VCL: Unhealthy > > >>>>>> Health score: -0.20 > > >>>>>> Score note: Less than one email per day to all MLs combined in the > > > > past > > > > >>>>>> quarter (-1.00) > > >>>>>> Score note: No new members added to the LDAP committee group for > > > > more > > > > >>>>>> than > > >>>>>> 2 years (-2.00) > > >>>>>> Score note: No new committers invited for more than a year (-1.00) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> If our reports keep looking like the above, we'll definitely be > > > > getting > > > > >>>> the > > >>>> board's attention. > > >>>> > > >>>> There are several indicators one could consider to gauge health of a > > >>>> > > >>>>> project. List traffic is one. If you look at the graph at > > >>>>> http://vcl.markmail.org/, you can see traffic has been markedly > > > > lower > > > > >>>>> in > > >>>>> recent months. This includes messages sent to the user, dev, and > > >>>>> commits > > >>>>> lists. If looks even worse if you look at user list traffic alone: > > >>>>> http://vcl.markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Auser > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Another indicator is whether or not the number of committers and PMC > > >>>>> members increases. This has proven to be difficult for VCL. As I > > > > think > > > > >>>>> Josh correctly pointed out in the thread referenced above, the > > > > nature of > > > > >>>>> VCL and its predominant audience (higher ed) may be factors which > > > > have > > > > >>>>> made > > >>>>> it difficult to attract new developers who make consistent > > >>>>> contributions. > > >>>>> I personally do not feel that regularly increasing the number of > > >>>>> committers > > >>>>> says a whole lot about the health of the project. A project can > > >>>>> very > > >>>>> healthy with a stable and small number of committers as long as they > > > > are > > > > >>>>> regularly contributing. That said, the last time we added a > > > > committer > > > > >>>>> was > > >>>>> over 2 years ago and I don't know of any prospects. Regardless of > > > > how > > > > >>>>> heavily you weight this indicator, it doesn't look good. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In the past, some have approached these issues by thinking "hey, > > > > let's > > > > >>>>> just > > >>>>> try to find some more committers." This hasn't worked. We need a > > > > new > > > > >>>>> and > > >>>>> better approach if this project is to remain viable. We could start > > > > by > > > > >>>>> working on areas we have direct control over and improving the > > > > ancillary > > > > >>>>> details related to the project. Below are some ideas I can think > > >>>>> of: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 1. Increase involvement from existing committers > > >>>>> In the thread from December, I was hoping to gauge people's concern > > > > and > > > > >>>>> elicit thoughts and ideas from others. Unfortunately, only two > > > > people > > > > >>>>> responded and no ideas were shared regarding how to improve the > > >>>>> community. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Based on the counts from Subversion and http://vcl.markmail.org/, > > > > here > > > > >>>>> is > > >>>>> the total number of messages sent and commits made from the > > >>>>> project's > > >>>>> current committers from 1/1/2015 until last week (I started typing > > > > this > > > > >>>>> up > > >>>>> a while ago): > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Comitter Messages Message Percent Commits Commit Percent > > >>>>> Josh Thompson 542 49% 129 46% > > >>>>> Andy Kurth 414 38% 124 44% > > >>>>> Aaron Peeler 107 10% 18 6% > > >>>>> Aaron Coburn 14 1% 0 0% > > >>>>> Dmitri Chebotarov 14 1% 4 1% > > >>>>> Young-Hyun Oh 7 1% 4 1% > > >>>>> James O'Dell 0 0% 0 0% > > >>>>> David Hutchins 0 0% 0 0% > > >>>>> > > >>>>> There are some threads such as this one and release discussions that > > > > I > > > > >>>>> feel > > >>>>> all committers should participate in. By participate, I mean more > > > > than > > > > >>>>> simply replying "+1" or "good point, I agree". > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Increasing participation from committers may also have a snowball > > > > effect > > > > >>>>> for others lurking on the lists and new subscribers. People may be > > > > more > > > > >>>>> inclined to participate if the threads if they appear to be a more > > > > of a > > > > >>>>> community discussion (which they all are) rather two people > > >>>>> communicating > > >>>>> back and forth. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I think we need to come to an understanding regarding what is > > > > expected > > > > >>>>> of > > >>>>> committers. We also need to figure out how to address situations > > > > where > > > > >>>>> committers are not participating. > > >>>> > > >>>> Coming up with what we (the VCL community) should expect of > > >>>> committers > > >>>> would > > >>>> be a good start. We should hash that out in a separate thread and > > > > then > > > > >>>> write > > >>>> up the results on a page under the Community section of the website. > > >>>> Some > > >>>> initial ideas that should go in that thread are coding, > > >>>> documentation, > > >>>> and > > >>>> list involvement. > > >>>> > > >>>> 2. Documentation > > >>>> > > >>>>> Before someone could ever make development contributions to the > > > > project, > > > > >>>>> they would need to be able to install VCL and have a good > > > > understanding > > > > >>>>> of > > >>>>> it. This isn't easy because the documentation is poor. If someone > > > > does > > > > >>>>> gain a solid understanding of administering VCL and could > > >>>>> potentially > > >>>>> contribute back, our development documentation doesn't provide much > > >>>>> information about where to get started or about the inner workings. > > >>>>> Improving our documentation will help increase the adoption of VCL > > > > and > > > > >>>>> also > > >>>>> make it easier for people to contribute. > > >>>> > > >>>> We've always struggled with documentation. There are a number of > > >>>> reasons for > > >>>> that - we're coders, not writers; little time to do it; expectation > > >>>> of > > >>>> others > > >>>> creating docs; lack of understanding by others to be able to create > > > > docs > > > > >>>> - but > > >>>> as you pointed out, people aren't going to get involved if they don't > > >>>> understand how. We need to expand the "Getting Involved" part of our > > >>>> website > > >>>> to have a clear guide on getting involved with development. This > > > > needs > > > > >>>> to > > >>>> include a roadmap, clear explanation of how to work on JIRA issues, > > > > and > > > > >>>> clear > > >>>> documentation about the code structure and how someone would start > > >>>> developing > > >>>> on it. > > >>>> > > >>>> 3. Vision & Roadmap > > >>>> > > >>>>> In order to get voluntary development contributions, a project has > > > > to be > > > > >>>>> appealing to developers. In order to be appealing, they have to > > >>>>> know > > >>>>> where > > >>>>> it's going. Wherever that is, it needs to be interesting and > > >>>>> useful. > > >>>>> We > > >>>>> don't have much of a roadmap or a vision of how VCL will look in the > > >>>>> future. We should define and communicate a roadmap and vision. > > >>>> > > >>>> This is another area we've alway struggled with. I think part of > > >>>> that > > >>>> is the > > >>>> fault of the committers in not doing a better job of seeking out what > > > > the > > > > >>>> community of VCL users would like to see in VCL. I also think part > > >>>> of > > >>>> it is > > >>>> how slow we are to get releases out. They don't come out fast enough > > > > for > > > > >>>> people to really be able to look forward to new features being added. > > >>>> > > >>>> 4. Lack of development transparency > > >>>> I think this is another thing that's caused problems with > > >>>> involvement. > > >>>> Those > > >>>> of use who are committers haven't done a good job of discussing what > > > > we > > > > >>>> are > > >>>> working on and seeking feedback on it. Personally, I know this is a > > >>>> problem > > >>>> for me mainly because of the time it takes to write up what I'm > > >>>> doing. > > >>>> > > >>>> 5. User list discussions > > >>>> I don't know why people that use VCL seem to be somewhat silent on > > >>>> our > > >>>> list. > > >>>> Maybe we need to include something on our download page that just > > >>>> asks > > >>>> people > > >>>> to ping the list when they download and set up VCL just so we know > > > > that > > > > >>>> people > > >>>> are really using it. Doing web searches of VCL shows a number of > > > > places > > > > >>>> using > > >>>> it from which I don't remember ever hearing anything. It's an open > > >>>> source > > >>>> project. So, that's fine if people don't want to say they're using > > > > it, > > > > >>>> but it > > >>>> would be helpful and give us a better understanding of how useful the > > >>>> project > > >>>> really is. > > >>>> > > >>>> 6. Language and Architecture > > >>>> VCL is written in PHP (with some javascript) and perl. The frontend > > >>>> utilizes > > >>>> an old architecture of web development where the UI is largely > > > > generated > > > > >>>> server side. PHP, perl, and the current frontend architecture are > > > > older > > > > >>>> and > > >>>> less popular now. I'm not suggesting we change things now (nor do we > > >>>> have the > > >>>> development time to do so), but it may be a contributing factor as to > > >>>> why we > > >>>> aren't picking up more committers now. > > >>>> > > >>>> Starting with these points and hopefully others share more ideas, we > > > > may > > > > >>>>> be > > >>>>> able to make the project more appealing and improve its health. I'm > > > > not > > > > >>>>> willing to do this alone, and it wouldn't be in accordance with "the > > >>>>> Apache > > >>>>> way" for Josh Thompson and I to do this alone. We both work for the > > >>>>> same > > >>>>> organization and organizational diversity is something we need to > > >>>>> consider > > >>>>> as well. If there simply isn't interest by others in sharing ideas > > > > and > > > > >>>>> contributing, that's fine. However, if that's the case we will need > > > > to > > > > >>>>> have a frank discussion about the future of the project and its > > >>>>> relationship with Apache. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Thank You, > > >>>>> Andy > > >>>> > > >>>> Andy - Thanks for starting this thread. It is a tough discussion to > > >>>> really > > >>>> analyze how we are doing as a project, which largely reflects on us > > >>>> as > > >>>> committers, but we're definitely to a point where we need to have the > > >>>> discussion. > > >>>> > > >>>> Josh > > >>>> - -- > > >>>> - ------------------------------- > > >>>> Josh Thompson > > >>>> VCL Developer > > >>>> North Carolina State University > > >>>> > > >>>> my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu > > >>>> > > >>>> All electronic mail messages in connection with State business which > > >>>> are sent to or received by this account are subject to the NC Public > > >>>> Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties. > > >>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >>>> Version: GnuPG v2 > > >>>> > > >>>> iEYEARECAAYFAlbd6SwACgkQV/LQcNdtPQOl9wCeIRlktxeLX1i4nLE9Iz3/F0AP > > >>>> z7UAn3clkULJYkKBLWBRlaae5aGRI/Ep > > >>>> =MSg5 > > >>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - -- - ------------------------------- Josh Thompson VCL Developer North Carolina State University my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu All electronic mail messages in connection with State business which are sent to or received by this account are subject to the NC Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlbjOzgACgkQV/LQcNdtPQMwYgCfTEmEfBf/P5FA0Gt00XsFfzxO 1OoAn3Y0zdE60fAIKI4wI4uHcYXU8NlC =2BED -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
