I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I agree with Norbert & Andor. Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in the projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers.
Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this? On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <an...@apache.org> wrote: > Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking about: > > - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes, > - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, etc. > - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull > request, etc. > > Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is a > common pattern across some Hadoop projects: > https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html < > https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html> > https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact> > > But not on: > https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html < > https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html> > > Regards, > Andor > > > > > On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <ph...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was for > all > > developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were used > for > > this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move to > > JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow. JIRA > > discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another > aspect > > of this mirroring is for archival purposes. > > > > As such the intent is for developers to participate in development > > discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head. > > > > Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually > > interested in project activity? > > > > Patrick > > > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <an...@apache.org> wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought it’s a > >> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid. > >> > >> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in > >> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with all > >> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails every now > and > >> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails and > >> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing with email > >> filters. > >> > >> *Filters* > >> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing lists, > can > >> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think having > >> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction for > emails: > >> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be > delivered > >> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new > subscribers. > >> > >> *Markmail* > >> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works. Tbh I > >> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from Gitbox, > but > >> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed. > >> > >> *Existing users* > >> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the config of > >> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward > >> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What will > happen > >> to them? > >> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github, > >> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need to > >> subscribe from a...@zk.org if you want to be notified about A and > >> b...@zk.org > >> if you want to be notified about B, etc. > >> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new lists, it > >> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer. > >> > >> My 2 cents. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Andor > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar <nkal...@cloudera.com.INVALID > > > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my email > ). > >>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance to > sign-up > >>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. Maybe > >>> delete/modify some filters. > >>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing nothing (not > >>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly interested in > >> user > >>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current list. > >>> > >>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like a good > >> idea > >>> to me. > >>> > >>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke <lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> re: existing users > >>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they should see > >> the > >>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe, if they > don't > >>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost. > >>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we can do > >> there. I > >>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people to a new > >> list, > >>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible. > >>>> > >>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY > >> overwhelming > >>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost unexpected > >>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have the > >>>> separation of mailing lists already > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar > >>>> <nkal...@cloudera.com.invalid> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created the > filters > >>>> and > >>>>> since forgot about them. > >>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters always carry > >> the > >>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's email. > >>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list is always a > good > >>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :) > >>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign up for the > new > >>>>> list. > >>>>> > >>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent stuff > >>>> (Patrick > >>>>> just mentioned marmail for example). > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> Norbert > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke < > lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites in the VOTE > >>>> thread. > >>>>>> That belongs here. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes, they may take a > >>>> while > >>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking site is > >>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff automatically > >>>>> anwyay. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke < > lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing lists. If the > >>>>> notifications > >>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe to what I want > instead > >>>>> of > >>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters if the dev list > >>>> only > >>>>>>> contains "discussions". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>> Lars > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt <ph...@apache.org> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless. Why change now? > >>>>> Also, > >>>>>> if > >>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of the tracking sites such > >>>> as > >>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Patrick > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke < > >>>> lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> See for example this: > >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915> for Jira > >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296> for Github > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created here < > >>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself but it's better if it > comes > >>>>>> from > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>> PMC member. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>> Lars > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar > >>>>>>>> <an...@cloudera.com.invalid> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed we are interested! > >>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic filters to separate signal > >>>>>> from > >>>>>>>>>> noise. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>> Andor > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars Francke < > >>>>>> lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the dev mailinglist but am > >>>>> overwhelmed > >>>>>>>> by > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications and about to unsubscribe again. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in moving the github & jira > >>>>>>>> notifications > >>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did a quick search for on the > >>>> mailing > >>>>>> list > >>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another thread about it. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache Training project now for > >>>>>>>> example is > >>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications to notifications@ and all Jira > >>>>>>>> messages > >>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open and close mails to dev@ > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly and works just fine. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested in? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>> Lars > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >
