Jarko, I am do not agree. Devel mailing list are not only to discuss technical topics. This is mailing list between developers .. and use it for solve any problem related to developers is right.
Kaacz Thu May 22 2014 15:05:44 GMT+0200 (CEST), Jarko Vihriala napsal: > This is not about sweeping dust but please take your epistola to some other > channel. This is a SailfishOS Devel mailing list and it is used to discuss > technical topics. If there is need, we evaluate existence of other mailing > lists. If you continue to flood this information channel we have to take > actions to ensure technical discussion is what goes on in this mail list. > > Consider yourself noticed. > > Thanks, > Jarko (jake9xx) > > On Thu May 22 2014 15:54:59 GMT+0300 (EEST), Filip Kłębczyk wrote: > > Hello, > > > > So as I've promised I will express my opinions on the meeting and what > > was said there on the mailing list. > > > > So first of all second meeting point was supposed to be about taking > > steps to solve the conflict proposed in my mail: > > http://wklej.org/id/1369055/ > > > > I've chosen to be silent, because I wanted to hear what others including > > Jolla have to say on that matter and if that proposal is at all > > acceptable for them. Unfortunately discussion turned into something > > different, that seems to me like a witch-hunt made by Jolla employees > > who were dominating the meeting. Below are full logs so everyone can > > have their own opinion on that: > > > > http://www.merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-05-22-10.00.log.html > > > > So first of all I had full right to stay silent at the meeting and they > > should have respected that. Somehow others respect that Thomas Perl is > > silent all the time, but when it comes to others that want to be silent > > for a while they fail that pretty simple test and try to force speaking. > > Double moral standards? > > > > Now to the points raised by Stefano. During the last days I had a chance > > to exchange lots of mails with Stefano and answer his questions. Sadly > > it seems it was a waste of time as he did not get anything from it right. > > > > Anyway regarding the points raised by Jolla employees: > > > > *1*. Stefano Mosconi (Jolla): Let's keep those discussions out of the > > mailing list > > > > My answer: > > That is truly open approach to remove any uncomfortable topic, that seem > > to important to at least some part of the community. Seems like the > > story with dust under the carpet is still valid. > > > > *2*. Philippe de Swert (Jolla): As there is no point discussing this if > > the main person involved is not willing to discuss > > > > My answer: > > Well there was clear proposal sent on the mailing list, but nobody > > wanted to seriosuly discuss or comment it > > > > *3* Denis Zalevskiy (as a private person): each Jolla employee is a > > private person and talks as a private person unless said he represents > > Jolla, so his intereaction with other people is personal > > > > My answer: > > Jolla guidelines [1] tell different story. It enough if person is on > > offcial Jolla communication channel (that includes Together) where > > Thomas mentioned about hack event in Vienna, from which he tried later > > to exclude me > > > > *4* Jarko Vihriala (Jolla), about me being silent: We have other > > responsibilities apart from this meeting as well. I don't think fk_lx 's > > current behavior is at any way acceptable. > > > > My answer: > > But Thomas Perl silence on this matter is completely acceptable? > > > > *5* Stefano Mosconi (Jolla) commenting discrimination/abuse problem: > > Event mentioned in this case is organized by Metalab, not Jolla. fk_lx > > claimed that Jolla is discriminating against him. From related chat logs > > and posts, it can be shown that this isn't the case. Conclusion from Jolla: > > *a)* Jolla as a company has nothing to do with it this issue > > > > My answer: > > Yes, nothing at all, besides tolerating it > > > > *b)* there is no trace that thp has requested Filip to be excluded he > > just said that if Filip is coming he is not and in saying > > > > My answer: > > 19:47 < thp> the meetups are in general open to everyone, but fk_lx is > > excluded and specifically NOT invited for very good reasons. > > > > see logs: http://wklej.org/hash/8ede3d7b136/ > > > > *c)* thp has reasons to avoid Filip and Filip seems to know why and > > acknowledged that in his mail > > > > My answer: > > I left the mail story for the end of this e-mail. Too bad Stefano you > > haven't understood at all > > > > *d)* no abuse or discrimination was done by thp, Carsten or any other > > Jolla employee towards Filip > > > > My answer: > > I tend to disagree, see my first post in the thread: > > > > *e)* Jolla did not ignore Filip nor his emails at the time > > > > My answer: > > What about e-mail from December that was ignored for months? What about > > promises to answer by 25th/27th of April and failing that? And from the > > above point we can get another information, that previously me or my > > e-mail were ignored > > > > *6* Stefano Mosconi (Jolla): Also (iekku gave me permission to share > > this) iekku which is the person behind dev care went on a long sick > > leave at the beginning of the year and this has affected all the answers > > to dev-care > > > > My answer: > > The mail was sent on 9th December, so before 2014 started. Moreover > > Iekku Pylkkä appologized me that someone's sick leave shouldn't be a > > reason to not have community guidlines for handling such cases. It's > > also worth to ask if someone sick leave is a reason for Jolla Developer > > Care to not answer mails for 5 months (December, January, February, > > March, then answer is promised to be sent till 25th/27th of April, but > > "any" answer, but not regarding the December problem but April one > > arrived on 5th of May). I'm all for publishing all e-mails and responses > > that were between me and Jolla care (also from Iekku e-mail speaking as > > Jolla Dev Care), so we will have proper chronology and content of messages. > > > > *8* Stefano Mosconi (Jolla): I have approached the case _very_ seriously > > and talked extensively with Filip > > to understand his concerns I asked as many questions as I could and > > dedicated to him plenty of my time > > > > My answer: > > I tend to disagree, content of your mails contradict with that. I appeal > > you to publish them so everyone can see your serious approach - I will > > publish mine part. > > > > *9* Stephan Beyerle (community): fk_lx being silent here and his threat > > to contact preess about his case makes me wonder if his goal is just > > plain revenge and making as much damage to jolla and thp as he can. > > fk_lx please speak up. I hoped he would solve it here today, but it > > seems he is not interested. > > > > My answer: > > Dear Stephan - if I am harmed I have full right to go with it to any > > mass media and press simple as that - it's not a threat it's just > > looking for justice. Notice that I've *first* informed press, then told > > about it on IRC/mailing list, so sorry it's not a threat nor a > > blackmail. Jolla has perfect right to contact the same media, clarify > > things and if Jolla sees something that is not truth in that media they > > can sue them for spreading slander/libel. > > > > *10* Carol Chen (Jolla): I think we have given enough time on this topic > > and provided a chance for fk_lx to address this, which he did not take > > > > My answer: > > The topic was about my proposal > > > > *11* Robin Burchell (Jolla): You cannot force private people to like > > each other, or communicate > > > > My answer: > > I totally agree with you that you cannot force anyone, but I will say if > > Thomas Perl doesn't want to talk directly or answers questions as Jolla > > employee there are different ways to solve that (there could be some > > proxy in a company, or someone else designated to answer those > > questions). But at the same time company discriminating clients is > > violation of consumer laws. Just like you wouldn't want to sell > > something to somebody for personal reasons. > > > > *12* Andrea Bernabei (community member, ex-intern at Jolla, talking > > about Thomas Perl not answering Python questions): NSA-rep, he only > > answered after other people asked (maybe it was me re-asking as > > well)...this is not doable > > > > My answer: > > Totally agree, thanks for courage to state that. In the long run you > > won't have to be ashamed when looking at yourself in the mirror. > > > > *13* Andrea Bernabei (community member, ex-intern at Jolla, answering > > Stefano to question if he seen thp action as malice): > > stezz, w00t I'd just hope I'd always get my answer replied by someone > > wearing a Jolla hat, thp can perfectly ignore personal questions and > > only reply to technical ones, it should be fairly easy to tell one from > > the other (and it seems other people agree) > > > > My answer: > > Totally agree. Wise words and once again thanks for the civil courage to > > tell that. > > > > *14* Carsten Munk (Jolla, commenting Andrea answer from *13*): The real > > problem comes from that it can't be seen if it's done maliciously, or > > out of genuine interest -- and thp is helping with other questions > > > > My answer: yes Thomas Perl is helping with other questions asked by > > other people without no doubt. But is it ok to not answer technical > > questions from personal reasons? I see it as discrimination > > > > *15* Robin Burchell (Jolla): you cannot force people to communicate. > > knowing thomas, i would assume that if he is ignoring a person > > completely, he is doing so for a very good reason > > > > My answer: maybe you don't know Thomas enough from all the sides, > > including dark ones? > > > > **16** My answer to Stefano Mosconi posting my mail from December with > > appologies and my tweet from that time: > > > > Stefano I've explained that in my private mails to you few times, so I > > will paste it here along with other relevant parts (as I am author of > > those): > > > > "Sorry, but I disagree with that opinion. I must admit Carsten tried to > > solve the problem and shown some goodwill. Of course methods he has > > chosen were inappropriate - psychomanipulation through guilt trip is the > > worst way to solve problems, any psychologist/psychotherapist will tell > > you that." > > > > "Moreover if I were him, when he got employed, knowing that there is a > > guy Filip in the community who really is passionate about Jolla (and > > Thomas knew very well how Jolla was important for me) I would do all to > > not give even a smallest reason for Filip to feel discriminated or > > excluded." > > > > "Through all that time Jolla didn't care to find a good, non-harming > > solution. Well, how do you think a solution can be made, when you don't > > talk seriously with one side of the conflict? Who talked with me? I was > > sending mails and no one was asking at all what kind of solution could > > be made, how I feel about certain things and what could be the end of > > this conflict. Not a single such question." > > > > "I like this community and it's my choice whether I stay or not and > > please respect that. I don't like what Jolla is doing in this certain > > case - you are free to fix the problem - it's your company, you invested > > money, time and your heart to it. Just like I've invested my heart, time > > and money in this community. " > > > > "It does good to me - I feel now free to express myself, not thinking > > whole the time what Carsten will think what I'm doing, whether he will > > be satisfied or not. *I'm not under his control anymore*. > > I see it also as justice, justice I was waiting for months. Now I can > > speak freely and tell everyone what was happening and what harm I've > > experienced. I believed I won't have to do that, but Jolla > > underestimated the whole problem and failed to fix it." > > > > "As I said read the mail I've gave you link to on beginning once again > > and the private one I've sent you on Friday. There is clear explanation > > why the mail from December you and Thomas Perl is showing has no value. > > It's the same like you would put a gun to someone's head and told him to > > write appologies. That mental gun was hold by Carsten. He is a mature > > person, he knew what he was doing, he knew very well in what state I was > > in December, but it didn't stop him from psychomanipulating and putting > > pressure on me at that time. I wanted jump out of window, that's how I > > felt about it. What is happening now is a result of what happened later > > and how your company handled (or rather not handled at all) the whole > > problem. " > > > > "You have full right to have your own opinion, just like many people > > have completely opposite to yours. I believe that covering Thomas Perl > > is really not worth the price in terms of your company losing good image > > in large part of community, but it's only my opinion, with which you can > > disagree." > > > > "I've told you that I've written what Carsten expected me to write, > > that's the kind of "truth" he wanted to hear and was squeezing into me > > earlier, but it wasn't the real truth. I was unfair to myself by writing > > such mail, but Carsten and Jolla were very important to me at that time, > > so I've sacrificed my own dignity for pleasing Carsten and for what I've > > perceived as good for Jolla (nowadays I think it was a big mistake). I > > would say why Carsten was doing it, but it's connected with his much > > earlier past and those are things he told me in confidence, so I don't > > have right to tell you about it and you won't force me to tell that." > > > > "So summing up - Carsten as much as Jolla was very important to me at > > that time, so I was desperate to write anything. I'm sorry that you > > can't understand that simple reason of writing that mail and you keep > > sticking to it." > > > > "I know that from what he was saying to me all the time before I wrote > > that mail and what was his opinion on the whole topic. Though, now I'm > > quite certain that his opinions were biased by his past. I think that > > most of the time he had good intentions and wanted what he perceived as > > good for me, but that way I would have to resign from being myself and > > focus on pleasing him and doing what he wants, no matter if I think if > > it's good for me or not. That's not worth it - been on that path and I > > don't want to return to it." > > > > "I wish your company good and I think it still has a time to change, but > > I won't agree to any sort of abuse or discrimination and your company > > tolerating that. It's the same like with debexpert case." > > > > "imagine that when person is saying multiple times in private > > conversations through long time "That you are in my opinion doing X and > > you should do Y and Z" in other words judges you and tells you what you > > should do, then at one point that person suddenly completely cuts off > > from you (stops responding on IRC, mail, drops your students he was > > mentoring), because you have a different opinion on what he repeated all > > the time and you don't do all the things he wanted you to do. Then later > > (on 14th December) sends you an e-mail which clearly suggests why he is > > doing that (cutting off). If you care very much about contact with that > > person, who is important at Jolla, who consults your students MSc > > thesis, who was making tempting visions of your future career at Jolla > > earlier, then what do you do? I wrote an e-mail where I fallen to the > > ground and took the whole blame on myself despite the conflict with > > Thomas was never black-and-white and I've received a lot of > > non-proportional harm from Thomas (told you about some of that). Carsten > > pumped whole the time to my brain that I'm fully guilty for everything. > > Why? The answer is in his past." > > > > "From a perspective of time I can say that writing that mail in December > > and taking the whole blame on myself was one of the biggest mistakes." > > > > "as I've said I don't have any right to talk about it as Carsten told me > > that in full confidence." > > > > "As far as Thomas is concerned, the story seems to be easier. The whole > > conflict overgrown himself and as a result he closed inside, hoping that > > escaping and avoiding will be the ultimate solution of the problem, with > > occasional counterattack if (intentionally or not) I get too close to > > his trenches. It's like first he did harm and then he runs off to mum to > > tell her that bad Filip wants to hurt him and he is a poor victim. Doing > > harm wasn't my intention (of course I had moments of weakness, but in > > the end I didn't wish him bad and I haven't crossed some borders, he > > crossed - as I've said I've neither called him names or sent threats, > > which in contrast he did to me)." > > > > "If you ask me it is completely enough that Jolla will solve the part > > connected with discrimination and abuse, will promise to not ignore such > > problems in future and compensate the harm that was made to me (I'm > > talking about the harm connected with Thomas as Jolla employee, not the > > harm he was doing to me privately and as a compensation I don't mean > > money, because I don't need that at all - it's mostly about moral > > compensation and harm that was done to me as a community member). If > > Thomas will be willing also to solve the private part of the problem > > (which I would say considering my goodwill wouldn't be a problem), > > that's even better, but it's completely up to him and not required at > > all - Jolla shouldn't push or force him to anything - he is a mature > > person and as every person should be respected and treated in the proper > > way. " > > > > "Choice what to do is on Jolla side. As I've stated many times before I > > won't tolerate discrimination and abuse in community/company context > > from any Jolla employee, whether it will be Thomas or anybody else from > > your company. That also includes any other person from community that > > your company will decide to discriminate or abuse." > > > > "Writing those words was purely my decision, but done under pressure > > I've told you about - if you cannot understand or agree with that it's > > completely fine, you are free to do that. I advise you to get to know > > about Brendan Eich case in Mozilla - he resigned, but wasn't his > > resignation made under pressure of his company and some of LGBT groups > > that wanted him to resign and were shouting to boycott Mozilla products. > > Also see Github case and how it ended, who resigned and who was thrown > > out in the end." > > > > "Yes, Carsten said to me why he is doing it, he said many times that he > > cared about me and he wants to help me. So I have serious base and > > reasons to believe his intentions were good, like I've stated." > > > > "Harm was from both sides and it if you are asking it wasn't a physical > > harm. " > > > > "I will repeat once again - insults, threats, discrimination (that also > > include discrimination outside Jolla projects)" > > > > "People judge that based on what they see and everyone has right to have > > their own opinion on the matter. Those people are your clients and > > community, you are free to ignore them. I will tell you something > > Stefano. Few months ago I took the liberty and read your blog, post by > > post right from the start to try to better understand what kind of > > person you are, learn about your views and some part of your past you > > describe, to better understand decision behind Jolla's management. That > > was a very interesting lecture to read and yes I've made some > > _assumptions_ and conclusions from that. What I've found that you are a > > guy that well understands corporate life and how business works, but > > doesn't seem to fully understand the community (which knowing how > > community can be important in businesses these days is a pity). Well and > > I admit it's hard to blame as you didn't came just like Marc Dillon from > > the community background. That's why you both have problems > > understanding people in community and when for example Khertan writes > > about simcard problem and reboots, then someone asks Marc if he confirms > > that, Marc says "Some people will always complain", many people, > > including those of company were outraged by such response of Marc. Have > > you thought why Zogg is so much criticizing Jolla, have you thought you > > have something to do it? Do you remember Michael Hasselman from Malit > > project? Have you noticed he left? Do you have an idea why he left? Have > > you been on this or last year FOSDEM, have you talked with people what > > they think about Jolla? Do you know why some of them already left to > > Tizen community? I know, because I've talked with them about reasons for > > their decisions..." > > > > "Now read carefully (maybe even few times) what Saija has written on > > sailfish-devel mailing list, her mail is very wise and a key to > > understanding." > > > > "I will give you a friendly advice - If you (and your coworkers) will > > treat the whole thing that is happening as a war and me as a Jolla enemy > > that you need to defeat, then I'm afraid you will lose a lot and I would > > say the stake is high - image of your company, and in the worst case > > result maybe even its existence. Do you want that? Do you want your and > > many of your friends dreams to fade away? Believe me or not, but many > > supporters will massively leave seeing your company's behavior to > > continue. I would gladly help your company to get out of this whole mess > > if you will cooperate to solve this problem. You can still get out with > > face from it, showing that you are a good manager. Choice is yours." > > > > "Your reply (...) has convinced me that you are probably boiling in the > > hot water - you are driven by a strong emotions. Sorry, but I don't feel > > a need to answer your mails anymore. > > > > Now if you have civil courage Stefano publish to all of us what you were > > writing in your mails. > > > > Regards, > > Filip > > > > [1] > > https://together.jolla.com/question/39552/what-is-the-participation-and-contribution-policy-for-jollas-open-source-contributors-in-open-source-projects/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list > > To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.org > > -- > Sent from my Jolla > _______________________________________________ > SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list > To unsubscribe, please send a mail to devel-unsubscr...@lists.sailfishos.or -- Sent from Jolla phone. Powered by Linux. 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