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Today's Topics:
1. Metadata change for 0.4 (Chris Anderson)
2. Re: Metadata change for 0.4 (Tavin Cole)
3. Metadata change for 0.4 (Chris Anderson)
4. Re: 0.3.7 (Mr.Bad)
5. Re: 0.3.7 (Mr.Bad)
6. Re: Metadata change for 0.4 (Adam Langley)
7. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Mr.Bad)
8. Re: Metadata change for 0.4 (Tavin Cole)
9. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Ian Clarke)
10. Re: 0.3.7 (Tavin Cole)
11. Re: 0.3.7 (Tavin Cole)
12. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Tavin Cole)
13. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Steven Hazel)
14. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Ian Clarke)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:07:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Anderson <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: [freenet-devl] Metadata change for 0.4
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
Whatever happened to the X.Y notation?
Metadata
DateRedirect.baseline =
DateRedirect.increment =
Multipart.File-Size =
Multipart.Part-Size =
Multipart.Part-Count =
Multipart.1 =
Multipart.2 =
Mapfile.default = index.html
Mappings.1 = index.html?CHK@
Mappings.2 = logo.png?CHK@
Manifest.Title =
Manifest.Author =
Manifest.Revision =
Manifest.Date =
Content-Type = audio/mpeg
Redirect = CHK@
End
That way you can parse the thing in one pass and test for subsections:
metadata = Fields.parseFields(in)
if metadata.getSet("Multipart") ...
if metadata.getSet("DateRedirect") ...
--__--__--
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:28:26 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Metadata change for 0.4
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 03:07:20PM -0500, Chris Anderson wrote:
>
> Whatever happened to the X.Y notation?
>
> Metadata
> DateRedirect.baseline =
> DateRedirect.increment =
> Multipart.File-Size =
> Multipart.Part-Size =
> Multipart.Part-Count =
> Multipart.1 =
> Multipart.2 =
> Mapfile.default = index.html
> Mappings.1 = index.html?CHK@
> Mappings.2 = logo.png?CHK@
> Manifest.Title =
> Manifest.Author =
> Manifest.Revision =
> Manifest.Date =
> Content-Type = audio/mpeg
> Redirect = CHK@
> End
>
> That way you can parse the thing in one pass and test for subsections:
>
> metadata = Fields.parseFields(in)
> if metadata.getSet("Multipart") ...
> if metadata.getSet("DateRedirect") ...
Hmm, well that's good in some ways, but on the other hand it makes it harder
to quickly identify e.g. a Mapfile or a Redirect (which are *commands* not
fields), and personally:
Mappings.1 = index.html?CHK at blah
is I think quite ugly.
Remember that not all clients will be java clients using our FieldSet API,
so I think it's easier for them to just test a header line to see if it's
something they care about and if not, skip to the next section.
Also, the X.Y notation would still be used within sections, when appropriate.
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:57:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Anderson <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: [freenet-devl] Metadata change for 0.4
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Tavin Cole wrote:
> Hmm, well that's good in some ways, but on the other hand it makes
> it harder to quickly identify e.g. a Mapfile or a Redirect (which
> are *commands* not fields), and personally:
>
> Mappings.1 = index.html?CHK at blah
>
> is I think quite ugly.
Heh, I had trouble with that one too.
> Remember that not all clients will be java clients using our
> FieldSet API, so I think it's easier for them to just test a header
> line to see if it's something they care about and if not, skip to
> the next section.
>
Ugh.. another API for the Java people. It's starting to look a
little Microsoft-ish:
[Mapfile]
...
[Manifest]
...
--__--__--
Message: 4
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] 0.3.7
From: Mr.Bad <[email protected]>
Organization: Pigdog Journal
Date: 04 Feb 2001 12:57:31 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>>>>> "TC" == Tavin Cole <tavin at mailandnews.com> writes:
TC> What was the problem with .rpms? You can't run post-install
TC> scripts like you can with .debs?
Nothing's particularly wrong with rpm's. Nobody's written one for
Freenet yet, is all.
TC> As far as the tarball, can't we just have an INSTALL file
TC> saying "run freenet_config before you run freenet_server the
TC> first time."
How about just leaving the fucking files in there? They're set to
reasonable defaults, anyways.
TC> <gripe> Why does it have to be .freenetrc and .fproxyrc
TC> instead of freenet.conf and fproxy.conf? And what was the
TC> point of putting the data in .freenet instead of store/ or
TC> freenet/ or data/ or whatever? I personally find the dotfiles
TC> quite irritating. </gripe>
Well, with the deb, everything goes into /etc/freenet/freenetrc and
/etc/freenet/fproxyrc. As you probably know, the name of the config
file for the node is configurable on the command line ("-paramFile
freenet.conf"), and the paramfile for Fproxy is configurable within
the param file for the node. So set it to whatever you want!
~Mr. Bad
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
\ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
| (X \x)
( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
\ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--__--__--
Message: 5
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] 0.3.7
From: Mr.Bad <[email protected]>
Organization: Pigdog Journal
Date: 04 Feb 2001 13:00:03 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>>>>> "RK" == Ruediger Kapitza <rrkapitz at stud.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
>>>>> writes:
RK> I'm not really sure what you mean but it is possible to run
RK> the Setup.class on install of an rpm and generate the
RK> configfiles automatic.
Yes, but AFAIK rpms don't respect existing configuration files like
debs do (one of the reasons people don't like RedHat). So if you're
upgrading to a new version of a program, RH slams your existing config
files.
With a .deb, the creator of the deb specifies the files that are
config files, and those are considered sacred and not stomped on. If
the file in the .deb has been upgraded, the admin gets a notification
and handles the problem him/herself.
~Mr. Bad
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
\ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
| (X \x)
( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
\ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--__--__--
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:11:58 +0000
From: Adam Langley <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Metadata change for 0.4
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 02:36:48PM -0500, Tavin Cole wrote:
> Okay. But wouldn't it make more sense to have:
>=20
> Redirect
> Target=3DCHK at xxxx
> End
It certainly would
> Anyway, to support trailing data I suppose we should use End only after
> the final section. I don't think we need the EndPart though, since the
> parser knows it's a new section if the line doesn't contain '=3D' and is
> not =3D=3D 'End'.
Ok,=20
> This gets ugly and creates problems for interoperation of different clien=
ts.
> If you separate it into cleanly divided sections with headers, clients
> can ignore the sections they don't use/understand.
Ok:
Metadata =3D number of parts followed by End
Part =3D Header, followed by number of pairs
Header =3D line w/o =3D in it
Pair =3D key=3Dvalue
> :) standards arguments are *so* much fun.
Oh yea ;)
AGL
--=20
I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.
--W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA
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--__--__--
Message: 7
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
From: Mr.Bad <[email protected]>
Organization: Pigdog Journal
Date: 04 Feb 2001 13:02:19 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>>>>> "IC" == Ian Clarke <lists at octayne.com> writes:
>> It is annoying, simulations indicate that a network should
>> have about 98% reliability and search-times of under 10 hops.
>>
>> well, but what size network? that makes a big difference. A
>> sweeping statement like "98% reliability" doesn't mean much
>> unless you say under what conditions.
IC> Perfect network, 30,000 nodes.
OK, are there any simulations of networks around 10^2? Are we worrying
about reliability for nothing?
~Mr. Bad
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
\ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
| (X \x)
( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
\ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:14:43 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Metadata change for 0.4
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 09:11:58PM +0000, Adam Langley wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 02:36:48PM -0500, Tavin Cole wrote:
> > Okay. But wouldn't it make more sense to have:
> >
> > Redirect
> > Target=CHK at xxxx
> > End
>
> It certainly would
>
> <snip>
>
> Ok:
>
> Metadata = number of parts followed by End
> Part = Header, followed by number of pairs
> Header = line w/o = in it
> Pair = key=value
Perfect. Now we just wait for everyone who doesn't hound the list
on Sundays to throw a fit ;)
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:21:49 -0800
From: Ian Clarke <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:02:19PM -0800, Mr.Bad wrote:
> OK, are there any simulations of networks around 10^2? Are we worrying
> about reliability for nothing?
I think that the lack of reliability is due to lack of requests, a few
weeks ago (shortly after the 0.3.6 release) the network was as healthy
as it has been for a long time, as there was much activity going on.
We should really start to think hard about how we can encourage people
onto Freenet. Aardvark and GJ's webpage are great, but neither has been
updated much recently. We need a killer-app. Perhaps Espra will
fulfill this role, but those guys have been so quiet, I am unsure of
where their development is, and am still unclear as to what exactly they
are trying to create.
The obvious killer-app would be mp3s, but for this we need a method that
updatable catalogs of mp3s can be stored on Freenet (preferably in
hierarchical indexes rather than just flat files for scalability).
FProxy could be used to browse and download these mp3s. There should be
a very easy way to take someone else's catalog and incorporate it into
your own (so that individual catalogs will tend to glob into larger and
larger catalogs making them much more useful).
The other obvious killer-app would be porn, but of course nobody here is
interested in that ;-)
Ian.
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--__--__--
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:15:52 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] 0.3.7
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:00:03PM -0800, Mr . Bad wrote:
> >>>>> "RK" == Ruediger Kapitza <rrkapitz at stud.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
> >>>>> writes:
>
> RK> I'm not really sure what you mean but it is possible to run
> RK> the Setup.class on install of an rpm and generate the
> RK> configfiles automatic.
>
> Yes, but AFAIK rpms don't respect existing configuration files like
> debs do (one of the reasons people don't like RedHat). So if you're
> upgrading to a new version of a program, RH slams your existing config
> files.
>
> With a .deb, the creator of the deb specifies the files that are
> config files, and those are considered sacred and not stomped on. If
> the file in the .deb has been upgraded, the admin gets a notification
> and handles the problem him/herself.
>
> ~Mr. Bad
We can circumvent the whole problem by not including the config files and
having Fred write them automatically using the silent mode of
Freenet.scripts.Setup if they do not exist.
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:17:29 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] 0.3.7
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 12:57:31PM -0800, Mr . Bad wrote:
> TC> As far as the tarball, can't we just have an INSTALL file
> TC> saying "run freenet_config before you run freenet_server the
> TC> first time."
>
> How about just leaving the fucking files in there? They're set to
> reasonable defaults, anyways.
Um, how about not clobbering my fucking files, since their defaults
are *NOT* reasonable for me?
The solution is trivial and has already been mentioned several times today.
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:35:46 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:21:49PM -0800, Ian Clarke wrote:
> I think that the lack of reliability is due to lack of requests, a few
> weeks ago (shortly after the 0.3.6 release) the network was as healthy
> as it has been for a long time, as there was much activity going on.
>
> We should really start to think hard about how we can encourage people
> onto Freenet. Aardvark and GJ's webpage are great, but neither has been
> updated much recently. We need a killer-app. Perhaps Espra will
> fulfill this role, but those guys have been so quiet, I am unsure of
> where their development is, and am still unclear as to what exactly they
> are trying to create.
>
> The obvious killer-app would be mp3s, but for this we need a method that
> updatable catalogs of mp3s can be stored on Freenet (preferably in
> hierarchical indexes rather than just flat files for scalability).
> FProxy could be used to browse and download these mp3s. There should be
> a very easy way to take someone else's catalog and incorporate it into
> your own (so that individual catalogs will tend to glob into larger and
> larger catalogs making them much more useful).
But isn't this what Espra is? I doubt we could implement such a system
from scratch faster than they could from beta..
The "killer-app" I've been quietly planning is an editable directory
dmoz.org-style. Have to think long and hard about how to integrate the
work of multiple maintainers automatically..
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
Message: 13
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
From: Steven Hazel <[email protected]>
Date: 04 Feb 2001 15:48:43 -0600
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
Tavin Cole <tavin at mailandnews.com> writes:
> But isn't this what Espra is? I doubt we could implement such a system
> from scratch faster than they could from beta..
They're not in beta, they're in vapor.
-S
--__--__--
Message: 14
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:06:34 -0800
From: Ian Clarke <[email protected]>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 04:35:46PM -0500, Tavin Cole wrote:
> But isn't this what Espra is? I doubt we could implement such a system
> from scratch faster than they could from beta..
The jury is out on exactly what Espra will do, or when it will be ready.
> The "killer-app" I've been quietly planning is an editable directory
> dmoz.org-style. Have to think long and hard about how to integrate the
> work of multiple maintainers automatically..
That would be cool. You could have a website and allow user input, and
then publish onto Freenet daily.
I would be willing to donate the domain "ossifer.org" to such an
endevour if people were interested. It could be developed on
Sourceforge.
Ian.
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