Hi Rafał,
Thanks for your reply.
I tried to understand what you meant. Is the below assumption correct?
1. Kicad use integer as index without unit, for example, current GUI
unit it mm, so all objects in the pcb board with display as mm and saved
in file as mm
2. If user change the GUI unit from mm to mil, software need to change
everythings from mm to mil(GUI display and file content)
I think that it's not a good idea to change file content every time,
just as @Mojca said.
Sincerely
Liang
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 16:49, Rafał Pietrak <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Liang
I truly fail to see if those points could be of any problem.
You just go from virtual to "physical" (and back again) whenever
necessary ... like while presenting "tings" to user (or vice verse when
taking user input, or during export/import). The main issue here, is
that if KiCAD *internally* would be working in virtual spaces just like
today and "nothing" had to change there. "only" the GUI and
export/import get the modification impact.
(IMHO This is quite like disk space was initially managed by sectors,
then there was too many sectors, so clusters were invented, then came
group of clusters, etc ... to get us eventually to petabytes
capacities;
so turning internal integer "dimensions" a "virtual grid space" gets us
onto the first "clustering" stage of "growth beyond" :).
But that's just my 2c. I only think it's worth pondering/weighting for
pros/cons. I don't intend to push the concept any further.
Cheers,
-R
On 26.11.2024 09:20, Liang Jia wrote:
> Hi Rafał,
>
> Thanks for your reply.
> *
> *
> > Guys, have you ever considered going to "virtual dimensions"?
> I think it's not doable.
>
> Because you need to show the same thing with different units when
using
> pcb editor.
> For example:
> 1. Users want to change the display unit from one to another.
> 2. Imported dxf shapes with specified unit
>
> Sincerely
> Liang
>
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 13:06, Rafał Pietrak <solver@electric-
sheep.eu <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:solver@electric-
sheep.eu>>> wrote:
>
> Guys, have you ever considered going to "virtual dimensions"?
>
> What I mean here is that the entire design (that is the PCB
of course,
> not the SCH) is based on an integer grid like "natural
numbers indices
> to locations", while the grid size is provided for the entire
PCB as a
> single float?
>
> Consequently, the current 32bit integers stay as they are,
only their
> meaning changes. They would no longer mean "mm" (or whatever
> "physical"), but just "indecies". "Physical sizes" would
emerge only
> when pcb get converted to production (gerber?) files ... or
whenever
> user puts in new constraints. The later naturally should be
accepted in
> physical dimensions as they are specified by fabs, but for
the design
> within KiCAD they should be converted to "grid size" based on
current
> grid size. Same goes for shapes libraries, but I think its
doable.
>
> Such approach would introduce a "one time rounding errors"
to the
> design, but since this is really a "one time event" it does
not bare
> any
> cumulative effects, so it shouldn't matter at all.
>
> -R
>
> On 26.11.2024 04:25, Liang Jia wrote:
> > Hi Mark and Seth,
> >
> > Thanks for your reply.
> >
> > Yes, you're right, it will lose some precision when using
double.
> >
> > Just curious, I did some search online.
> > *1. I found that the key players in the PCB market still have
> limits.*
> > OrCAD X: 200 in. x 200 in = 5 meter * 5 meter;
> > https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb-design-and-
analysis/ <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb-design-and-
analysis/>
> <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb-design-and-
analysis/ <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb-design-and-
analysis/>>
> > orcad.html#pcb-layout <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/
tools/ <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/>
> pcb- <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb- <https://
www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb->>
> > design-and-analysis/orcad.html#pcb-layout>
> > Altium Designer: 200 in. x 200 in = 2.5 meter * 2.5 meter
> > https://www.altium.com/documentation/knowledge-base/
altium- <https://www.altium.com/documentation/knowledge-base/altium->
> designer/ <https://www.altium.com/documentation/knowledge-
base/ <https://www.altium.com/documentation/knowledge-base/>
> altium-designer/>
> > indicate-visual-cues-at-the-coordinate-limit-of-pcb-
design-space-
> beyond-
> > which-objects-should-not-be-placed <https://
www.altium.com/ <https://www.altium.com/>
> <https://www.altium.com/ <https://www.altium.com/>>
> > documentation/knowledge-base/altium-designer/indicate-visual-
> cues-at-
> > the-coordinate-limit-of-pcb-design-space-beyond-which-objects-
> should-
> > not-be-placed>
> > Allegro: I can't find any detail information, but I tried the
> software,
> > it seems still have limit. *Anyone know the board size
limit for
> Allegro?*
> > *
> > *
> > *2. If we really want to solve this problem, there are options
> below.*
> > 2.1 Using software integer library, such as GMP;
> > We can give an option to the user, let the user
choose to
> enable
> > it or not.
> > If enabled, Kicad can support a bigger board size, but
> software
> > will slow;
> > If enabled, Kicad runs as usual.
> > **https://gmplib.org/ <https://gmplib.org/> <https://
gmplib.org/ <https://gmplib.org/>> <https://gmplib.org/ <https://
gmplib.org/>
> <https://gmplib.org/ <https://gmplib.org/>>>
> > 2.2 Using Binary coded-decimal,
> > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2624973/why-doesnt-my-
<https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2624973/why-doesnt-my->
> processor- <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2624973/why-
doesnt- <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2624973/why-doesnt->
> my-processor->
> > have-built-in-bigint-support <https://stackoverflow.com/
<https://stackoverflow.com/>
> <https://stackoverflow.com/ <https://stackoverflow.com/>>
> > questions/2624973/why-doesnt-my-processor-have-built-in-
bigint-
> support>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal> <https://
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal <http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal>> <https://
> > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal <http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal> <http://
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal <http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal>>>
> > 2.3 *Give the control of precision and board size to the
user.*
> > If a user wants to have a smaller board size, he/
she will
> have
> > more precision location and something else;
> > If a user wants to have a bigger board size, he/she
will have
> > less precision location and something else;
> >
> > *@Mark what's your opinion? *
> > *
> > *
> > *@Seth,
> > *
> > >Addressing this means reworking our internal coordinate
system
> > Could you please kindly give me some location for those
codes? so
> I can
> > dig into it.
> > *
> > *
> >
> > Sincerely
> > Liang
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 02:02, Mark Roszko
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote:
> >
> > Floats are not accurate beyond 6-7 digits and worse,
floating
> point
> > behavior is actually not fully well defined. You can
actually get
> > different quirks depending on platform, compiler and
arch. Though
> > generally the risk isn't in the arithmetic but supporting
> functions
> > that are part of libc.
> >
> > >And why did Kicad choose integer as internal measurement
> resolution?
> >
> > Using integers is standard programming behavior for
applications
> > that want well defined and bounded mathematical behavior.
> >
> > When you do floating point math, even if we ignore the
inaccurate
> > power part of the number, that error still sits in the
> number. When
> > you carry out sufficient and numerous operations using
> numbers that
> > carry these not used digits, they can actually creep
in and start
> > affecting the digits you do care about and cause errors.
> >
> >
> > >Last, so that means there is no way to handle this
issue?
> >
> >
> > We have come to the conclusion that if somebody needs
PCB designs
> > larger than 4 meters, which is already an ridiculous size.
> They need
> > to discuss with us the use case which is already going
to be
> > ridiculously niche for that one person because there is no
> standard
> > PCB manufacturing equipment for a board of that size.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 8:01 AM Liang Jia
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > Thanks for your email.
> >
> > Could you please explain more about the relation
between
> "Change
> > the measurement store from 32-bit to *64-bit*" and
"128-bit
> > integer math support in processors"?
> > And why did Kicad choose integer as internal
measurement
> resolution?
> >
> > >mm is not adequate to express the resolution of
> position data
> > required for a board design.
> > How about this? use mm for internal measurement
> resolution, but
> > use nanometer or *double(instead of integer)* for
board
> design.
> >
> >
> > Last, so that means there is no way to handle this
issue?
> >
> > On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 at 19:21, Mark Roszko
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote:
> >
> > >This means it is possible to create boards up to
> > approximately 4 meters by 4 meters
> >
> > Yes, KiCad is limited to 4x4 meter boards
currently.
> >
> > > Change the measurement store from 32-bit
to 64-
> bit, so
> > Kicad can support a larger board.
> >
> > This is not an easy task in the slightest.
Specifically
> > because we can't get 128-bit integer math
support in
> > processors, and many compilers do not support
128-bit
> > integers. I think gcc has some experimental
support.
> >
> > > Change the resolution of all objects to mm
> >
> > mm is not adequate to express the resolution
of position
> > data required for a board design.
> >
> >
> >
> > Basically the bug here is we simply do not
tell the users
> > the DXF is beyond our board support limit.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 5:07 AM Liang Jia
> > <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I am writing to inquire about the
challenges we are
> > facing when importing DXF files which
contain large
> > numbers into our system.
> >
> > I have noticed that when the number
exceeds a certain
> > threshold(such as 4437 mm), the import process
> results
> > in an int overflow error.
> >
> > I did the search below:
> > 1. Found that there was a ticket to track
it, but it
> > seems *it still opens*.
> > https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392
<https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392> <https://
> gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392 <http://gitlab.com/
kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392>>
> > <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/
<https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/>
> issues/12392 <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/
issues/12392 <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392>>>
> >
> > 2. From the Kicad document:
> > The internal measurement resolution of all
objects in
> > KiCad is *1 nanometer*, and measurements are
> stored as
> > *32-bit integers*. This means it is
possible to
> create
> > boards up to approximately 4 meters by 4
meters
> > I think the *root cause* is here: Kicad
tried to
> convert
> > the DXF number into nanometer, but those
numbers
> > exceeded the limit of integer.
> >
> > Questions:
> > 1. Is there any workaround for this case,
and let
> Kicad
> > import those files successfully?
> > 2. If I want to fix ticket 12392, what
should I do?
> > Change the measurement store from 32-
bit to
> 64-bit,
> > so Kicad can support a larger board.
> > Change the resolution of all objects
to mm
> >
> > Looking forward to any comment or workaround.
> >
> > Sincerely
> > Liang
> >
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