Hi Rafał, Thanks for your explanation. I got your point.
Let me conclude all the proposals to solve the board limit of kicad, in case we need to do more in the future. 1. Larger integers, such as 64bit integer; but it needs CPU and compiler to support 128-bit calculation efficiently. 2. Changing to a dual integer + fractional fixed point representation. from @Seth; It needs rework of internal measurement of Kicad. 3. Using virtual dimension, from @Rafał ; It needs rework of internal measurement of Kicad. Sincerely Liang On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 at 15:59, Rafał Pietrak <[email protected]> wrote: > Liang, > > As I said - I was just wondering if you guys ever considered > implementation of virtual space for internal KiCAD "guts". > > But your questions call for explanation, so this is what I mean: > 1. current 4m by 4m limitation of KiCAD, if emerging from 32 bit > internal dimension representation, means that 1 bit is equal to > something like 1nm (nanometer). > 2. for amateur designers like myself, this precision is way too fine. I > personally don't need to go anywhere below 0.1mil = 2,54micron, while > 1mil/2mils is sufficient most of the time. > 3. It wouldn't be reasonable to assume, that noone will ever use KiCAD > for designs at nanometer scale. So, there are sound reasons to support > that. > 4. (setting aside current issue of DXF imports) IMHO users that require > artwork larger then 4m by 4m may happen (like display walls), such > artworks would hardly need nanometer precision. > > Surely enough, if KiCAD internally would use virtual grid, then changing > the size of that grid (while keeping the overall artwork size fixed) > would require recalculation of all the artwork locations (endpoints, > placements etc) and would result in introduction of "relocations" due to > rounding errors. But ... user setting the new grid size just > explicitly stated, that the design does not require better precision; so > I don't see a problem there. > > The gain from having virtual dimension internally is that KiCAD could > potentially cover larger spectrum of users ... like nanometer designs > do require subnanometer precision :) ... or be able to import building > size DXF without an effort. BTW: having a building size single design > just to accommodate smaller interconnected components under common > umbrella is not so unthinkable. > > Then again, this is not to push the design towards anything, just being > curious. > > -R > PS: I had to lookup the "o derp". nice :) > > > On 27.11.2024 03:59, Liang Jia wrote: > > Hi Rafał, > > > > Thanks for your reply. > > > > I tried to understand what you meant. Is the below assumption correct? > > 1. Kicad use integer as index without unit, for example, current GUI > > unit it mm, so all objects in the pcb board with display as mm and saved > > in file as mm > > 2. If user change the GUI unit from mm to mil, software need to change > > everythings from mm to mil(GUI display and file content) > > > > I think that it's not a good idea to change file content every time, > > just as @Mojca said. > > > > Sincerely > > Liang > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 16:49, Rafał Pietrak <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > Hi Liang > > > > I truly fail to see if those points could be of any problem. > > > > You just go from virtual to "physical" (and back again) whenever > > necessary ... like while presenting "tings" to user (or vice verse > when > > taking user input, or during export/import). The main issue here, is > > that if KiCAD *internally* would be working in virtual spaces just > like > > today and "nothing" had to change there. "only" the GUI and > > export/import get the modification impact. > > > > (IMHO This is quite like disk space was initially managed by sectors, > > then there was too many sectors, so clusters were invented, then came > > group of clusters, etc ... to get us eventually to petabytes > > capacities; > > so turning internal integer "dimensions" a "virtual grid space" gets > us > > onto the first "clustering" stage of "growth beyond" :). > > > > But that's just my 2c. I only think it's worth pondering/weighting > for > > pros/cons. I don't intend to push the concept any further. > > > > Cheers, > > > > -R > > > > On 26.11.2024 09:20, Liang Jia wrote: > > > Hi Rafał, > > > > > > Thanks for your reply. > > > * > > > * > > > > Guys, have you ever considered going to "virtual dimensions"? > > > I think it's not doable. > > > > > > Because you need to show the same thing with different units when > > using > > > pcb editor. > > > For example: > > > 1. Users want to change the display unit from one to another. > > > 2. Imported dxf shapes with specified unit > > > > > > Sincerely > > > Liang > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 13:06, Rafał Pietrak <solver@electric- > > sheep.eu <mailto:[email protected]> > > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:solver@electric- > > sheep.eu>>> wrote: > > > > > > Guys, have you ever considered going to "virtual dimensions"? > > > > > > What I mean here is that the entire design (that is the PCB > > of course, > > > not the SCH) is based on an integer grid like "natural > > numbers indices > > > to locations", while the grid size is provided for the entire > > PCB as a > > > single float? > > > > > > Consequently, the current 32bit integers stay as they are, > > only their > > > meaning changes. They would no longer mean "mm" (or whatever > > > "physical"), but just "indecies". "Physical sizes" would > > emerge only > > > when pcb get converted to production (gerber?) files ... or > > whenever > > > user puts in new constraints. The later naturally should be > > accepted in > > > physical dimensions as they are specified by fabs, but for > > the design > > > within KiCAD they should be converted to "grid size" based on > > current > > > grid size. Same goes for shapes libraries, but I think its > > doable. > > > > > > Such approach would introduce a "one time rounding errors" > > to the > > > design, but since this is really a "one time event" it does > > not bare > > > any > > > cumulative effects, so it shouldn't matter at all. > > > > > > -R > > > > > > On 26.11.2024 04:25, Liang Jia wrote: > > > > Hi Mark and Seth, > > > > > > > > Thanks for your reply. > > > > > > > > Yes, you're right, it will lose some precision when using > > double. > > > > > > > > Just curious, I did some search online. > > > > *1. I found that the key players in the PCB market still > have > > > limits.* > > > > OrCAD X: 200 in. x 200 in = 5 meter * 5 meter; > > > > https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb-design-and- > > analysis/ <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb-design-and- > > analysis/> > > > <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb-design-and- > > analysis/ <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb-design-and- > > analysis/>> > > > > orcad.html#pcb-layout <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/ > > tools/ <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/> > > > pcb- <https://www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb- <https:// > > www.cadence.com/en_US/home/tools/pcb->> > > > > design-and-analysis/orcad.html#pcb-layout> > > > > Altium Designer: 200 in. x 200 in = 2.5 meter * 2.5 meter > > > > https://www.altium.com/documentation/knowledge-base/ > > altium- <https://www.altium.com/documentation/knowledge-base/altium- > > > > > designer/ <https://www.altium.com/documentation/knowledge- > > base/ <https://www.altium.com/documentation/knowledge-base/> > > > altium-designer/> > > > > indicate-visual-cues-at-the-coordinate-limit-of-pcb- > > design-space- > > > beyond- > > > > which-objects-should-not-be-placed <https:// > > www.altium.com/ <https://www.altium.com/> > > > <https://www.altium.com/ <https://www.altium.com/>> > > > > > documentation/knowledge-base/altium-designer/indicate-visual- > > > cues-at- > > > > > the-coordinate-limit-of-pcb-design-space-beyond-which-objects- > > > should- > > > > not-be-placed> > > > > Allegro: I can't find any detail information, but I tried > the > > > software, > > > > it seems still have limit. *Anyone know the board size > > limit for > > > Allegro?* > > > > * > > > > * > > > > *2. If we really want to solve this problem, there are > options > > > below.* > > > > 2.1 Using software integer library, such as GMP; > > > > We can give an option to the user, let the user > > choose to > > > enable > > > > it or not. > > > > If enabled, Kicad can support a bigger board size, > but > > > software > > > > will slow; > > > > If enabled, Kicad runs as usual. > > > > **https://gmplib.org/ <https://gmplib.org/> <https:// > > gmplib.org/ <https://gmplib.org/>> <https://gmplib.org/ <https:// > > gmplib.org/> > > > <https://gmplib.org/ <https://gmplib.org/>>> > > > > 2.2 Using Binary coded-decimal, > > > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2624973/why-doesnt-my- > > <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2624973/why-doesnt-my-> > > > processor- <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2624973/why- > > doesnt- <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2624973/why-doesnt-> > > > my-processor-> > > > > have-built-in-bigint-support <https://stackoverflow.com/ > > <https://stackoverflow.com/> > > > <https://stackoverflow.com/ <https://stackoverflow.com/>> > > > > questions/2624973/why-doesnt-my-processor-have-built-in- > > bigint- > > > support> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal> <https:// > > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal <http:// > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal>> <https:// > > > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal <http:// > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal> <http:// > > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal <http:// > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal>>> > > > > 2.3 *Give the control of precision and board size to the > > user.* > > > > If a user wants to have a smaller board size, he/ > > she will > > > have > > > > more precision location and something else; > > > > If a user wants to have a bigger board size, he/she > > will have > > > > less precision location and something else; > > > > > > > > *@Mark what's your opinion? * > > > > * > > > > * > > > > *@Seth, > > > > * > > > > >Addressing this means reworking our internal coordinate > > system > > > > Could you please kindly give me some location for those > > codes? so > > > I can > > > > dig into it. > > > > * > > > > * > > > > > > > > Sincerely > > > > Liang > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 02:02, Mark Roszko > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Floats are not accurate beyond 6-7 digits and worse, > > floating > > > point > > > > behavior is actually not fully well defined. You can > > actually get > > > > different quirks depending on platform, compiler and > > arch. Though > > > > generally the risk isn't in the arithmetic but > supporting > > > functions > > > > that are part of libc. > > > > > > > > >And why did Kicad choose integer as internal > measurement > > > resolution? > > > > > > > > Using integers is standard programming behavior for > > applications > > > > that want well defined and bounded mathematical > behavior. > > > > > > > > When you do floating point math, even if we ignore the > > inaccurate > > > > power part of the number, that error still sits in the > > > number. When > > > > you carry out sufficient and numerous operations using > > > numbers that > > > > carry these not used digits, they can actually creep > > in and start > > > > affecting the digits you do care about and cause > errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > >Last, so that means there is no way to handle this > > issue? > > > > > > > > > > > > We have come to the conclusion that if somebody needs > > PCB designs > > > > larger than 4 meters, which is already an ridiculous > size. > > > They need > > > > to discuss with us the use case which is already going > > to be > > > > ridiculously niche for that one person because there > is no > > > standard > > > > PCB manufacturing equipment for a board of that size. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2024, 8:01 AM Liang Jia > > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected] > >> > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Mark, > > > > > > > > Thanks for your email. > > > > > > > > Could you please explain more about the relation > > between > > > "Change > > > > the measurement store from 32-bit to *64-bit*" and > > "128-bit > > > > integer math support in processors"? > > > > And why did Kicad choose integer as internal > > measurement > > > resolution? > > > > > > > > >mm is not adequate to express the resolution of > > > position data > > > > required for a board design. > > > > How about this? use mm for internal measurement > > > resolution, but > > > > use nanometer or *double(instead of integer)* for > > board > > > design. > > > > > > > > > > > > Last, so that means there is no way to handle this > > issue? > > > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 at 19:21, Mark Roszko > > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > >This means it is possible to create boards > up to > > > > approximately 4 meters by 4 meters > > > > > > > > Yes, KiCad is limited to 4x4 meter boards > > currently. > > > > > > > > > Change the measurement store from 32-bit > > to 64- > > > bit, so > > > > Kicad can support a larger board. > > > > > > > > This is not an easy task in the slightest. > > Specifically > > > > because we can't get 128-bit integer math > > support in > > > > processors, and many compilers do not support > > 128-bit > > > > integers. I think gcc has some experimental > > support. > > > > > > > > > Change the resolution of all objects to > mm > > > > > > > > mm is not adequate to express the resolution > > of position > > > > data required for a board design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically the bug here is we simply do not > > tell the users > > > > the DXF is beyond our board support limit. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 5:07 AM Liang Jia > > > > <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > I am writing to inquire about the > > challenges we are > > > > facing when importing DXF files which > > contain large > > > > numbers into our system. > > > > > > > > I have noticed that when the number > > exceeds a certain > > > > threshold(such as 4437 mm), the import > process > > > results > > > > in an int overflow error. > > > > > > > > I did the search below: > > > > 1. Found that there was a ticket to track > > it, but it > > > > seems *it still opens*. > > > > https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392 > > <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392> <https:// > > > gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392 <http://gitlab.com/ > > kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392>> > > > > <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/ > > <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/> > > > issues/12392 <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/ > > issues/12392 <https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/12392>>> > > > > > > > > 2. From the Kicad document: > > > > The internal measurement resolution of all > > objects in > > > > KiCad is *1 nanometer*, and measurements > are > > > stored as > > > > *32-bit integers*. This means it is > > possible to > > > create > > > > boards up to approximately 4 meters by 4 > > meters > > > > I think the *root cause* is here: Kicad > > tried to > > > convert > > > > the DXF number into nanometer, but those > > numbers > > > > exceeded the limit of integer. > > > > > > > > Questions: > > > > 1. Is there any workaround for this case, > > and let > > > Kicad > > > > import those files successfully? > > > > 2. If I want to fix ticket 12392, what > > should I do? > > > > Change the measurement store from 32- > > bit to > > > 64-bit, > > > > so Kicad can support a larger board. > > > > Change the resolution of all objects > > to mm > > > > > > > > Looking forward to any comment or > workaround. > > > > > > > > Sincerely > > > > Liang > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are > > > subscribed to > > > > the Google Groups "KiCad Developers" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop > > receiving > > > emails > > > > from it, send an email to > > > [email protected] > > <mailto:devlist%[email protected]> > > <mailto:devlist%[email protected] > > <mailto:devlist%[email protected]>> > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > <mailto:devlist%[email protected]> > > > <mailto:devlist%[email protected] > > <mailto:devlist%[email protected]>>>. > > > > To view this discussion visit https:// > > > groups.google.com/ <http://groups.google.com/> <https:// > > 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