On 11/07/2012 03:13 AM, Vincent Massol wrote: > Hi Caleb and all, > > On Nov 5, 2012, at 2:07 PM, Caleb James DeLisle <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> My opinion of github is not very bright, there's vender lockin because you >> can't easily migrate >> issues and other value addeds and they don't open source their platform so >> while git allows you >> to push somewhere else, you can't have the nice web interface with the >> features without going through >> them. >> >> That said, it is hard to argue with 3 clicks and a `git push`. >> >> While it would be easy to dismiss me as "lazy", I see this dismissal as a >> huge problem for the free >> software movement in general. Why should an ordinary person ask for >> permission to use xwiki-contrib >> then make sure their pom.xml parent ID is in order when they could just do 3 >> clicks and a git push? > > Because you get a lot more by being an xwiki-contrib project: > * CI > * Mailing list email notification > * Maven repository where to release versions > * JIRA, Wiki page (which you also get with github but that's about it) > * Sonar dashboard (coming up ;)) > * Ability to collaborate with others through a mailing list and more > generally collaborate as equals with others rather than in a "creator/second > level citizen" mode > * Quality stats on xwiki.org on the hall of fame page (needs to be improved) > * More visibility since we reference xwiki contribs projects on xwiki.org > even more than pure extensions. Note that we need to improve this part which > is not fully true ATM but which we could easily make true > * More generally ability to benefit from best of breed tools that xwiki.org > offers and continue to update/improve in general >
These are all great value-addeds, two problems are they aren't very useful until a project becomes somewhat established and they are a bit dispersed. Just having an xwiki-contrib control panel with links to each of these things would be a big step. >> Granted XWiki is far better off than some projects, when I see copyright >> release forms and patent >> non-infringement statements which have to be signed, I find it mindboggling >> that anyone would contribute >> to these projects at all given all of the roadblocks which have been erected. > > Actually we might have to do something about CLA in the future... This is unfortunate. Number one because these issues almost never actually come up in court and law is complex enough that there is always a way to litigate. Number two because I would never spend my free time contributing to a project which required me to file paperwork for the privilege of helping them. That said, I might well be the exception to the rule. After all, if everyone were like me credit card companies would not exist. > >> A good example of a social good also being more useful is Linux. I love >> Linux, it is free software and >> it is fast, even the giants such as Microsoft and Apple can't afford to >> outspend the army of companies >> who pour money into profiling, tweaking, optimizing, and refactoring Linux >> and the result is a network >> stack which blows the doors off of everyone else in the market. And it got >> that way being free. >> >> Now the question of how we should make xwiki-contrib more attractive than >> $THE_OTHER_GUY is worth asking. >> It is better for the contributor, they get continuous integration and issue >> tracking, but none of it is >> automated. Since we're all pretty busy and automating this process is >> probably not on anybody's roadmap, >> I think we're going to have to accept that it's easier to start off a small >> project in one's own namespace >> and then move when it grows and the contributor wants to take advantage of >> the services in xwiki-contrib. > > I don't really agree here. For a user asking to be on xwiki-contrib it's > pretty easy and all the work is done for them by xwiki committers. It would > need to be automated for xwiki committers' sake but not for the users asking > ;) > >> If we don't at least understand this fundamental issue then the githubs and >> facebooks of the world with >> their 1 click walled gardens will win. > > I think the list I've put above is pretty interesting for any project and it > can only grow as we improve our forge in the future. The biggest improvement > would probably be to offer a full wiki configured as a dev project flavor for > contrib projects which would contain (for ex): > - A dashboard with would have gadgets listing: latest jira issues, > contributors of the project, sonar quality gadgets, latest blog posts of the > project, etc > - A Release application (similar to the one we have on dev.xwiki.org) > - A FAQ application > - Git stats using our Github Application > - Mailing list/forum application (the one Jeremie is working on :)) > - etc +1 One remaining issue is the "asking to be in contrib" part, it's not particularly hard but nobody wants to ask until they have something to show so I see pushing to one's github namespace and then transferring later as the most common usage scenario. Thanks, Caleb > > Thanks > -Vincent > >> Thanks, >> Caleb >> >> >> On 11/05/2012 04:02 AM, Jerome Velociter wrote: >>> On 10/23/2012 09:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote: >>>> On Oct 23, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Ludovic Dubost <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> This should have been for devs Envoyé de mon iPhone Début du message >>>>> transféré : >>>>>> Expéditeur: Ludovic Dubost <[email protected]> Date: 23 octobre 2012 >>>>>> 09:19:55 UTC+02:00 Destinataire: XWiki Users <[email protected]> Objet: >>>>>> Github tracker. was: Re: [xwiki-users] New Realtime collaborative >>>>>> editing extension. Just a quick. You seem to introduce a practice to use >>>>>> the github tracker instead of xwiki.org jira's Not sure it's a good >>>>>> thing. I'm sure Vincent will agree >>>> Well, what I would prefer personally is that contrib projects be in the >>>> xwiki-contrib organization and use the XWiki tools (wiki, jira, etc). The >>>> reason is that this allows: * to group together projects around XWiki >>>> (they're not scattered everywhere on the web and harder to find) * make it >>>> a neutral location for people to collaborate together on xwiki projects. >>>> That's a key element to contribution IMO * is more long term. If you stop >>>> working on the project it's not going to be a dead project >>>> in someone's github repo and it'll have more chance of being >>>> maintained/seen in the xwiki-contrib repo I know Jerome also puts his >>>> contributions in his own github project and I had the same reservation >>>> about it. We can't force anyone of course since this is a contribution but >>>> it's more collaborative to make them xwiki-contrib project, following the >>>> rules defined at http://contrib.xwiki.org I understand you may want to >>>> beef up your github profile but for collaboration I feel the xwiki-contrib >>>> is better with the 2 arguments listed above. Jerome, Caleb let me know >>>> what you think. >>> >>> >>> Hi Vincent, >>> >>> This is a interesting topic and there are several aspects to it. >>> >>> For me the "discoverability" argument for having projects on >>> https://github.com/xwiki-contribdoes not make much sense. The centralized >>> place for projects around XWiki is http://extensions.xwiki.org, not github. >>> There's the "view source" button that tells where the sources are. Github >>> is a convenience here, and it's always possible to "copy" (or fork) a >>> project in xwiki-contrib, for whatever reason (original project not active, >>> etc.). >>> >>> That being said I understand why you think it's better to have as much >>> projects as possible under the xwiki-contrib umbrella : it makes it a >>> one-stop shop with the same tools, same workflow, same permissions, etc. >>> >>> Here are the arguments I see for why one contributor or contributing >>> organization would want to host its projects itself : >>> - use of own tools and own workflow (github issues vs. JIRA for example). >>> - it allows a contributor or contributing organization to have it's own >>> place to centralize its contribution(s) (the "beef up" argument as you >>> say). I think this can make sense in some circonstances, especially for >>> contributing organizations (companies for example). >>> >>> The bottom line comes down to : what rules do we want for using the >>> "org.xwiki.contrib" groupId and tools (maven repos, CI, etc.) ? >>> If we want a rule saying that the project should be hosted on >>> github.com/xwiki-contrib/ then that's that, and I think it's fair. We just >>> have to decide on it (right now there is no such rule according to >>> http://contrib.xwiki.org/). >>> >>> Jerome >>> >>> >>>> Thanks -Vincent >>>>>> Ludovic Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 23 oct. 2012 à 04:17, Caleb James >>>>>> DeLisle <[email protected]> a écrit : >>>>>>> One other thing, please report the features which you want and what you >>>>>>> imagine as best on the github tracker, it's easier to close an issue as >>>>>>> "won't fix" than it is to remember an important issue which nobody >>>>>>> wrote down ;) Thanks Caleb On 10/22/2012 10:14 PM, Caleb James DeLisle >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, Thanks for the complement. I just updated it and fixed issue #1. >>>>>>>> Thanks for reporting it. Somehow showing who else is editing, showing >>>>>>>> where they are editing in the document and allowing the user to spawn >>>>>>>> a chat window with other editors on the page are all interesting >>>>>>>> possibilities. Right now I think the thing to do is decide where there >>>>>>>> is the most bang for your buck in terms of feature value and get an >>>>>>>> idea of what's most natural for the user. Thanks, Caleb On 10/19/2012 >>>>>>>> 07:59 AM, >>>>>>>> Ryszard Łach wrote: >>>>>>>>> Great work! It looks like good starting point to give xwiki the main >>>>>>>>> (at least for me) feature, that makes googledoc sometimes more >>>>>>>>> suitable for collaborative editing. It would be really great, if your >>>>>>>>> editor would show somehow, where the other editor (person) is now, >>>>>>>>> where is his cursor. Maybe a highlight (the whole line) showing the >>>>>>>>> other's cursor placement? Do you plan to work on such improvements? >>>>>>>>> R. >>>> _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
