On Nov 7, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET <[email protected]> wrote:
>> - Mailing list/forum application (the one Jeremie is working on :)) > > In fact, I think the most missing feature from xwiki-contrib is a > time-warp machine to allocate a parallel dimension to the contributor > where time stays still :) Indeed! That's a nice feature, you should open a JIRA for it ;) > The idea of a contrib project specific wiki is nice (implemented as a > Workspace ?). Yes could be a XEM (i.e. workspaces) or as a farm with hardcoded links between wikis. > It merges with my own idea (for internal needs where I work) to create > workspaces dedicated to various communities, and present a mail > archive view on topics related to that community, creating a workspace > template pre-configured for that. Yes >>> While it would be easy to dismiss me as "lazy", I see this dismissal as a >>> huge problem for the free >>> software movement in general. Why should an ordinary person ask for >>> permission to use xwiki-contrib >>> then make sure their pom.xml parent ID is in order when they could just do >>> 3 clicks and a git push? > > Well, I believe it really depends on the profile of the person ... > Someone already used to creating open-source projects, having already > put in place his own tools and delivery process, may find boring to > comply to xwiki contrib rules. > Considering my own case, I never really contributed much to > open-source projects (nor created some for myself), the tools and > processes I'm familiar with are mainly internal and use proprietary > (and expansive) tools. So it was very natural for me to use what xwiki > contrib had to offer. Also there's the idea that a contribution is > more likely to be contributed if it matches community-wise known > rules, and so it's easier to get some help if needed. Good points. Thanks -Vincent > 2012/11/7 Vincent Massol <[email protected]>: >> Hi Caleb and all, >> >> On Nov 5, 2012, at 2:07 PM, Caleb James DeLisle <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> My opinion of github is not very bright, there's vender lockin because you >>> can't easily migrate >>> issues and other value addeds and they don't open source their platform so >>> while git allows you >>> to push somewhere else, you can't have the nice web interface with the >>> features without going through >>> them. >>> >>> That said, it is hard to argue with 3 clicks and a `git push`. >>> >>> While it would be easy to dismiss me as "lazy", I see this dismissal as a >>> huge problem for the free >>> software movement in general. Why should an ordinary person ask for >>> permission to use xwiki-contrib >>> then make sure their pom.xml parent ID is in order when they could just do >>> 3 clicks and a git push? >> >> Because you get a lot more by being an xwiki-contrib project: >> * CI >> * Mailing list email notification >> * Maven repository where to release versions >> * JIRA, Wiki page (which you also get with github but that's about it) >> * Sonar dashboard (coming up ;)) >> * Ability to collaborate with others through a mailing list and more >> generally collaborate as equals with others rather than in a "creator/second >> level citizen" mode >> * Quality stats on xwiki.org on the hall of fame page (needs to be improved) >> * More visibility since we reference xwiki contribs projects on xwiki.org >> even more than pure extensions. Note that we need to improve this part which >> is not fully true ATM but which we could easily make true >> * More generally ability to benefit from best of breed tools that xwiki.org >> offers and continue to update/improve in general >> >>> Granted XWiki is far better off than some projects, when I see copyright >>> release forms and patent >>> non-infringement statements which have to be signed, I find it mindboggling >>> that anyone would contribute >>> to these projects at all given all of the roadblocks which have been >>> erected. >> >> Actually we might have to do something about CLA in the future... >> >>> A good example of a social good also being more useful is Linux. I love >>> Linux, it is free software and >>> it is fast, even the giants such as Microsoft and Apple can't afford to >>> outspend the army of companies >>> who pour money into profiling, tweaking, optimizing, and refactoring Linux >>> and the result is a network >>> stack which blows the doors off of everyone else in the market. And it got >>> that way being free. >>> >>> Now the question of how we should make xwiki-contrib more attractive than >>> $THE_OTHER_GUY is worth asking. >>> It is better for the contributor, they get continuous integration and issue >>> tracking, but none of it is >>> automated. Since we're all pretty busy and automating this process is >>> probably not on anybody's roadmap, >>> I think we're going to have to accept that it's easier to start off a small >>> project in one's own namespace >>> and then move when it grows and the contributor wants to take advantage of >>> the services in xwiki-contrib. >> >> I don't really agree here. For a user asking to be on xwiki-contrib it's >> pretty easy and all the work is done for them by xwiki committers. It would >> need to be automated for xwiki committers' sake but not for the users asking >> ;) >> >>> If we don't at least understand this fundamental issue then the githubs and >>> facebooks of the world with >>> their 1 click walled gardens will win. >> >> I think the list I've put above is pretty interesting for any project and it >> can only grow as we improve our forge in the future. The biggest improvement >> would probably be to offer a full wiki configured as a dev project flavor >> for contrib projects which would contain (for ex): >> - A dashboard with would have gadgets listing: latest jira issues, >> contributors of the project, sonar quality gadgets, latest blog posts of the >> project, etc >> - A Release application (similar to the one we have on dev.xwiki.org) >> - A FAQ application >> - Git stats using our Github Application >> - Mailing list/forum application (the one Jeremie is working on :)) >> - etc >> >> Thanks >> -Vincent >> >>> Thanks, >>> Caleb >>> >>> >>> On 11/05/2012 04:02 AM, Jerome Velociter wrote: >>>> On 10/23/2012 09:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote: >>>>> On Oct 23, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Ludovic Dubost <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> This should have been for devs Envoyé de mon iPhone Début du message >>>>>> transféré : >>>>>>> Expéditeur: Ludovic Dubost <[email protected]> Date: 23 octobre 2012 >>>>>>> 09:19:55 UTC+02:00 Destinataire: XWiki Users <[email protected]> Objet: >>>>>>> Github tracker. was: Re: [xwiki-users] New Realtime collaborative >>>>>>> editing extension. Just a quick. You seem to introduce a practice to >>>>>>> use the github tracker instead of xwiki.org jira's Not sure it's a good >>>>>>> thing. I'm sure Vincent will agree >>>>> Well, what I would prefer personally is that contrib projects be in the >>>>> xwiki-contrib organization and use the XWiki tools (wiki, jira, etc). The >>>>> reason is that this allows: * to group together projects around XWiki >>>>> (they're not scattered everywhere on the web and harder to find) * make >>>>> it a neutral location for people to collaborate together on xwiki >>>>> projects. That's a key element to contribution IMO * is more long term. >>>>> If you stop working on the project it's not going to be a dead project >>>>> in someone's github repo and it'll have more chance of being >>>>> maintained/seen in the xwiki-contrib repo I know Jerome also puts his >>>>> contributions in his own github project and I had the same reservation >>>>> about it. We can't force anyone of course since this is a contribution >>>>> but it's more collaborative to make them xwiki-contrib project, following >>>>> the rules defined at http://contrib.xwiki.org I understand you may want >>>>> to beef up your github profile but for collaboration I feel the >>>>> xwiki-contrib >>>>> is better with the 2 arguments listed above. Jerome, Caleb let me know >>>>> what you think. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Vincent, >>>> >>>> This is a interesting topic and there are several aspects to it. >>>> >>>> For me the "discoverability" argument for having projects on >>>> https://github.com/xwiki-contribdoes not make much sense. The centralized >>>> place for projects around XWiki is http://extensions.xwiki.org, not >>>> github. There's the "view source" button that tells where the sources are. >>>> Github is a convenience here, and it's always possible to "copy" (or fork) >>>> a project in xwiki-contrib, for whatever reason (original project not >>>> active, etc.). >>>> >>>> That being said I understand why you think it's better to have as much >>>> projects as possible under the xwiki-contrib umbrella : it makes it a >>>> one-stop shop with the same tools, same workflow, same permissions, etc. >>>> >>>> Here are the arguments I see for why one contributor or contributing >>>> organization would want to host its projects itself : >>>> - use of own tools and own workflow (github issues vs. JIRA for example). >>>> - it allows a contributor or contributing organization to have it's own >>>> place to centralize its contribution(s) (the "beef up" argument as you >>>> say). I think this can make sense in some circonstances, especially for >>>> contributing organizations (companies for example). >>>> >>>> The bottom line comes down to : what rules do we want for using the >>>> "org.xwiki.contrib" groupId and tools (maven repos, CI, etc.) ? >>>> If we want a rule saying that the project should be hosted on >>>> github.com/xwiki-contrib/ then that's that, and I think it's fair. We just >>>> have to decide on it (right now there is no such rule according to >>>> http://contrib.xwiki.org/). >>>> >>>> Jerome >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thanks -Vincent >>>>>>> Ludovic Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 23 oct. 2012 à 04:17, Caleb James >>>>>>> DeLisle <[email protected]> a écrit : >>>>>>>> One other thing, please report the features which you want and what >>>>>>>> you imagine as best on the github tracker, it's easier to close an >>>>>>>> issue as "won't fix" than it is to remember an important issue which >>>>>>>> nobody wrote down ;) Thanks Caleb On 10/22/2012 10:14 PM, Caleb James >>>>>>>> DeLisle wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi, Thanks for the complement. I just updated it and fixed issue #1. >>>>>>>>> Thanks for reporting it. Somehow showing who else is editing, showing >>>>>>>>> where they are editing in the document and allowing the user to spawn >>>>>>>>> a chat window with other editors on the page are all interesting >>>>>>>>> possibilities. Right now I think the thing to do is decide where >>>>>>>>> there is the most bang for your buck in terms of feature value and >>>>>>>>> get an idea of what's most natural for the user. Thanks, Caleb On >>>>>>>>> 10/19/2012 07:59 AM, >>>>>>>>> Ryszard Łach wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Great work! It looks like good starting point to give xwiki the main >>>>>>>>>> (at least for me) feature, that makes googledoc sometimes more >>>>>>>>>> suitable for collaborative editing. It would be really great, if >>>>>>>>>> your editor would show somehow, where the other editor (person) is >>>>>>>>>> now, where is his cursor. Maybe a highlight (the whole line) showing >>>>>>>>>> the other's cursor placement? Do you plan to work on such >>>>>>>>>> improvements? R. _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
