Hi Guillaume, I didn't found it just because I saw this as a bug, not an improvement. Sorry for the noise,
On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau < gdelhum...@xwiki.com> wrote: > Hi Denis. > > Actually there is http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10745 that I have > committed yesterday on master. I will backport it to the 6.2.x branch today > and so we will have it for 6.2.2. > > Thanks, > > 2014-10-01 0:38 GMT+02:00 Denis Gervalle <d...@softec.lu>: > > > Hi, > > > > After seeing that 6.2.1 still doesn't have any clean display for > languages, > > please do what you want but do something about it. Now, I will fear > > discussing such topics, when I see the end result. (Sorry if what I say > > seems hard, I know you have made a huge job adapting Flamingo, and you > > should be congratulated for that anyway) > > > > Thanks, > > > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Denis Gervalle <d...@softec.lu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > vali...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> Depends who is our main focus: normal users or content gardeners? > > >> > > > > > > Is there really such a distinction on a collaborative wiki ? I do not > > > think so ! Everyone is expected to be a contributor. > > > > > > > > >> As an user of a multi-language site you just care if the site is > > available > > >> in your language. After you made the initial interface language > > selection, > > >> you wish to have the content displayed in the same language, or > fallback > > >> on > > >> a 'neutral' language (while mentioning that the 'preferred' language > is > > >> not > > >> available). > > >> > > > > > > I do not really agree here either, but it could be a default. > Personally, > > > I use english interface but I would like to see content in french when > > > available :) > > > > > > > > >> A normal user does not care that a certain page has x translations or > > that > > >> the interface is in 30 languages, except when doing the initial > > >> preference. > > >> This could be set also from User Profile. > > >> > > > > > > Are we talking about UI language, or content language. For UI > language, I > > > fully agree with you. > > > > > > > > >> As a content gardener (content manager) I want to know what languages > > are > > >> missing in order to add them. But this info can be (and it is) > displayed > > >> in > > >> the edit mode. > > > > > > > > > ... in the edit mode, should I really need to open the editor to see a > > > missing translation. It is even worse than 2.2 :) > > > > > > But, this is not my point. If you look at OSX for example, you may > choose > > > a complete list of language, in your order of preference, and the > > fallback > > > should follow that list. So if you care about serving, what you called > > > "normal user", you need the same kind of preference... > > > ...or you may serve all users by simply better displaying what is > > > available ! This also remove the need for differentiating normal and > > > gardeners. > > > > > > > > >> ---- > > >> > > >> The 'easy' solution as you said is to make it configurable. And we > kind > > of > > >> do this when we don't reach an agreement. IMO it's good and is bad, > > since > > >> the code and the testing gets split, so I hope we reach a conclusion. > > >> > > > > > > You seems to forget quite quickly about our past. We use to have a list > > of > > > links for years now, so we are talking about a major change for > existing > > > users. > > > > > > > > >> > > >> The argument that there are not that many languages in the wild is > hard > > to > > >> quantify, since we are missing user statistics. > > >> > > > > > > While we do not have statistics, we have client, and we also have > users, > > > and I do not remember seeing big complaints about the way it works > > > currently. > > > > > > > > >> > > >> --- > > >> > > >> Another place where we could display the language information in the > > >> expanded state (2.1) could be near the Tags area or in the Document > > >> Information. > > >> I prefer the select approach (2.2) because the location is highly > > visible > > >> and we don't want to capture the user's attention on an information he > > >> might not need at all. > > >> > > > > > > Basically, I agree with you about the importance of the information. > > > However, where you seems to always see a cumbersome list of links, I > see > > a > > > short list of links most of the time. This is not a matter of not > > choosing, > > > it is only to answer very exceptional cases, where scalability became > an > > > issue. To compare, do you think that a button labelled "Brazilian > > > Portuguese" is more or less cumbersome than the list "EN | FR | PT-BR" > ? > > > Remember that we could display only available translations, and unless > we > > > do a remake of Wikipedia, most of the time, there will not be that > many. > > > What I propose, is not to don't reach a conclusion, is to provide best > of > > > both world ! > > > > > > > > >> That's why if you really want to put them as list of links, maybe we > can > > >> change the location and present them more as metadatas. > > >> > > > > > > It is not metadata, you miss my point. What I say is that > > > switching/managing a small list of language is far better served by a > > list > > > of link then a menu. IMO, this will be the most used case, and the > large > > > list will be the exception. > > > > > > > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Caty > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Denis Gervalle <d...@softec.lu> > wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi Cathy, > > >> > > > >> > I would like to add a remark to your conclusion which is very > centric > > on > > >> > the 2.2 solutions. > > >> > > > >> > The main complaints that have been said about 2.1 solution were > > >> > scalability, and the fear that too much languages could clutter the > > >> > interface, which is true at some point. However, GL mention the fact > > >> that > > >> > it is really rare to have more than five languages. I also mention > > that > > >> 2.2 > > >> > solution require more click to switch language. > > >> > > > >> > I would like to add that 2.1 is nearer to what we have actually, so > > 2.2 > > >> > could be seen as an important change for existing users. A change > that > > >> > could be seen as less ergonomic. Switching between just two language > > >> with > > >> > 2.2 is really boring compare to the same task with 2.1. > > >> > > > >> > The scalability issue should not drive alone the decision. There is > > also > > >> > another aspect of between 2.1 and 2.2 that should be considered. > With > > >> 2.2, > > >> > you do not see at a glance, what are the available translations. Two > > use > > >> > case here: a) You have to click once to discover that your expected > > >> > language is not available. b) while reviewing the site for > > completeness, > > >> > you need to click to know about available translation for each > > document. > > >> > > > >> > Believe me, I have work for a long time in multilingual environment, > > and > > >> > unless your language usage is very casual, single click switch and > > >> direct > > >> > view of available languages are far more comfortable than a menu > > choice. > > >> > > > >> > So, since this is still a proposal and not a vote, I think that it > is > > >> still > > >> > time to extends the proposal. > > >> > Why not implementing a mix of 2.1 (for easy of use, and "back > > >> > compatibility") and 2.2 (for scalability) depending on user > > >> configuration, > > >> > with a default based on the number of configured languages ? > > >> > It does not look that hard IMO, and could have the benefit of > > >> scalability > > >> > and usability at the same time. > > >> > > > >> > I hope other will reconsider their views, because this is an > important > > >> > choice, and it could make a differentiator for XWiki. > > >> > WDYT ? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:43 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > >> > vali...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Hi, > > >> > > > > >> > > These preferences were so hard to calculate since people didn't > used > > >> > clean > > >> > > +/-0/1 voted or voted positively on multiple entries, so if I > > >> > misunderstood > > >> > > your vote please let me know. > > >> > > > > >> > > Reminder: Proposal available at > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/InterfaceAndContentLanguageSeparation > > >> > > > > >> > > __Short version__ > > >> > > > > >> > > So the majority of the participants liked version 2.2 with some > > >> > discussion > > >> > > whether to choose variant 2.2.1 or 2.2.2. > > >> > > > > >> > > So the current votes are: > > >> > > ** 2.2.1: (-0 Jean) (+1 Sergiu) (+0 GL) (+1 Silvia) (+0 Andreea) > (+1 > > >> > Manu) > > >> > > (+1 Caty) > > >> > > ** 2.2.2: (+1 Jean) (+0 Sousa) (+1 GD) (+0 Caty) (-1 Sergiu) > > >> > > > > >> > > ** 2.2.1: { '1': (-0) (+4) } { '0': (-1) (+2) } = +4 > > >> > > ** 2.2.2: { '1': (-1) (+2) } { '0': (-0) (+2) } = +1 > > >> > > > > >> > > If you want to change your vote or cast another vote, please reply > > to > > >> > this > > >> > > message. Until then, the winning solution is 2.2.1 > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > __Long version__ > > >> > > > > >> > > Some conclusions: > > >> > > > > >> > > * 2.1: (-0 Jean) (-1 Sergiu) > > >> > > ** 2.1.1: (+0 Jean) (+1 Denis) (+0 Silvia) (+0 Manu) > > >> > > ** 2.1.2: (+1 GL) (+0 Denis) > > >> > > > > >> > > * 2.2: (+1 Jean) (+1 Sergiu) > > >> > > ** 2.2.1: (-0 Jean) (+1 Sergiu) (+0 GL) (+1 Silvia) (+0 Andreea) > (+1 > > >> > Manu) > > >> > > ** 2.2.2: (+1 Jean) (+0 Sousa) (+1 GD) (+1 Caty) (-1 Sergiu) > > >> > > ** 2.2.3: (+0 Sergiu) (+0 Andreea) (+0 Manu) > > >> > > > > >> > > * 2.3: (-0 Jean) (+/-0 Sergiu) (+0 Andreea) > > >> > > > > >> > > * 2.4: (+0 Jean) (+0 Sousa) (-0 Caty) (-1 Sergiu) (+0 Andreea) > > >> > > > > >> > > So this means: > > >> > > > > >> > > * 2.1: { '1': (-1) (+0) } { '0': (-1) (+0) } = -1 > > >> > > ** 2.1.1: { '1': (-0) (+1) } { '0': (-0) (+3) } = +1 > > >> > > ** 2.1.2: { '1': (-0) (+1) } { '0': (-0) (+1) } = +1 > > >> > > > > >> > > * 2.2: { '1': (-0) (+2) } { '0': (-0) (+0) } = +2 > > >> > > ** 2.2.1: { '1': (-0) (+3) } { '0': (-1) (+2) } = +3 > > >> > > ** 2.2.2: { '1': (-1) (+3) } { '0': (-0) (+1) } = +2 > > >> > > ** 2.2.3: { '1': (-0) (+0) } { '0': (-0) (+3) } = 0 > > >> > > > > >> > > * 2.3: { '1': (-0) (+0) } { '0': (-2) (+2) } = 0 > > >> > > > > >> > > * 2.4: { '1': (-1) (+0) } { '0': (-1) (+3) } = -1 > > >> > > > > >> > > So the majority of the participants liked version 2.2 with some > > >> > discussion > > >> > > whether to choose variant 2.2.1 or 2.2.2. The votes were: > > >> > > ** 2.2.1: (-0 Jean) (+1 Sergiu) (+0 GL) (+1 Silvia) (+0 Andreea) > (+1 > > >> > Manu) > > >> > > ** 2.2.2: (+1 Jean) (+0 Sousa) (+1 GD) (+1 Caty) (-1 Sergiu) > > >> > > > > >> > > Adjustments: > > >> > > > > >> > > Since Segiu voted -1 on 2.2.2 we couldn't pick this version until > > the > > >> > > committer changes his vote, given the arguments. > > >> > > > > >> > > Given Sergiu's arguments I want to change my vote for 2.2.2 from > +1 > > >> -> +0 > > >> > > and give variant 2.2.1 a +1 vote. > > >> > > My rationale behind this change is that: > > >> > > * initially I preferred using links to display the language in > order > > >> to > > >> > be > > >> > > consistent with edit mode (language selection) > > >> > > * because of space constraints I believe is better to use a menu > to > > >> > display > > >> > > them > > >> > > * since it's a menu, I agree it should have the standard menu look > > >> > > * from an implementation point of view is easier to use the > > >> Bootstrap's > > >> > > menu component than to write a custom one for our case > > >> > > > > >> > > So the current votes are: > > >> > > ** 2.2.1: (-0 Jean) (+1 Sergiu) (+0 GL) (+1 Silvia) (+0 Andreea) > (+1 > > >> > Manu) > > >> > > (+1 Caty) > > >> > > ** 2.2.2: (+1 Jean) (+0 Sousa) (+1 GD) (+0 Caty) (-1 Sergiu) > > >> > > > > >> > > ** 2.2.1: { '1': (-0) (+4) } { '0': (-1) (+2) } = +4 > > >> > > ** 2.2.2: { '1': (-1) (+2) } { '0': (-0) (+2) } = +1 > > >> > > > > >> > > If you want to change your vote or cast another vote, please reply > > to > > >> > this > > >> > > message. Until then, the winning solution is 2.2.1 > > >> > > > > >> > > Thanks, > > >> > > Caty > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Manuel Smeria <man...@xwiki.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > Hello, > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I'm +1 for this proposal. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I like 2.1.1, 2.2.1 & 2.2.3, but if I were to pick one I'd go > with > > >> > 2.2.1. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Thanks, > > >> > > > Manuel > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" > > Delhumeau < > > >> > > > gdelhum...@xwiki.com> wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > 2014-08-21 11:00 GMT+02:00 vinc...@massol.net < > > vinc...@massol.net > > >> >: > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On 21 Aug 2014 at 10:57:36, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau > ( > > >> > > > > > gdelhum...@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhum...@xwiki.com)) wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Hi > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > 2014-08-21 9:58 GMT+02:00 Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) : > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Hi, > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > First of all we need to decide how prominent we want > this > > >> > > > > > functionality to > > >> > > > > > > > be. > > >> > > > > > > > I would make it more transparent, since theoretically > you > > >> > should > > >> > > > > change > > >> > > > > > > > your language preference just once (in the > Administration, > > >> and > > >> > > per > > >> > > > > > user) > > >> > > > > > > > and all the pages should be displayed according to that > > >> > > preference. > > >> > > > > > This is > > >> > > > > > > > not something that need to be highly visible and that > you > > >> would > > >> > > > > change > > >> > > > > > > > every day. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > It's not true on a public wiki (like Wikipedia). > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > That’s a good point, we need to agree which skin we’re > > >> discussing. > > >> > > > AFAIK > > >> > > > > > we’re discussing Flamingo which is NOT a public web site > skin. > > >> When > > >> > > we > > >> > > > > do a > > >> > > > > > public web site skin we would need to take this into > > >> consideration > > >> > > > > indeed. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > To me Flamingo can be used for a public wiki (without the app > > >> bar), > > >> > > which > > >> > > > > has not the same meaning as "public website" which is not > > >> necessary a > > >> > > > > "wiki" (see: > > >> > > > > > > >> http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Leiothrix+Skin > > >> > ). > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks > > >> > > > > > -Vincent > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > IMO it's more important to be better displayed when you > > >> want to > > >> > > > > > > > create a new translation, than when you read one. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Regarding the flag to represent languages you can read > > this > > >> > > comment > > >> > > > > > with > > >> > > > > > > > additional information about why we wouldn't do it like > > that > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9512?focusedCommentId=77895&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-77895 > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Thanks, > > >> > > > > > > > Caty > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Denis Gervalle wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Hi Cathy, > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > 2.1.1 is the one I prefer, 2.1.2 is also good but the > > >> > > separation > > >> > > > > > between > > >> > > > > > > > > language should be more clear, and it is less easy to > > see > > >> the > > >> > > > > active > > >> > > > > > > > one. I > > >> > > > > > > > > have no fear about the scaling issue, even heavily > > >> > multilingual > > >> > > > > site > > >> > > > > > like > > >> > > > > > > > > those of the European Commission use such enumeration > > >> without > > >> > > > > issue. > > >> > > > > > And > > >> > > > > > > > as > > >> > > > > > > > > Guillaume said, it is really rare to have more than a > > few > > >> > > > languages > > >> > > > > > > > anyway. > > >> > > > > > > > > Other proposal implies multiple click/touch for the > same > > >> > > purpose, > > >> > > > > > which > > >> > > > > > > > is > > >> > > > > > > > > bad IMO for content. It is also important to only > > display > > >> > > > > effectively > > >> > > > > > > > > available languages, but with an enum, it could be > also > > >> good > > >> > to > > >> > > > > have > > >> > > > > > the > > >> > > > > > > > > option to also display unavailable one greyed, so > > language > > >> > keep > > >> > > > > their > > >> > > > > > > > > location on screen. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Regarding the UI language, 1.1 is fine, but maybe a > bit > > >> > large. > > >> > > > > Having > > >> > > > > > > > only > > >> > > > > > > > > initial in the bar would be better IMO. Having also a > > more > > >> > > fancy > > >> > > > > > > > solution, > > >> > > > > > > > > like what I have done with bluebird (see > > http://softec.lu > > >> ), > > >> > > > could > > >> > > > > be > > >> > > > > > > > nice > > >> > > > > > > > > to have as well... or a easy way to customize it that > > way > > >> > with > > >> > > an > > >> > > > > > > > > extension. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Ecaterina Moraru > > >> (Valica) < > > >> > > > > > > > > vali...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Hi devs, > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > We have http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10745 > > >> (Improve > > >> > > the > > >> > > > > > display > > >> > > > > > > > of > > >> > > > > > > > > > available languages in Flamingo) which is related to > > >> > > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-6402 (Separate > > >> > Interface > > >> > > > > > language > > >> > > > > > > > and > > >> > > > > > > > > > page language settings) > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > While in Flamingo we could just make the language > > links > > >> > look > > >> > > > > > better, > > >> > > > > > > > > > without changing the functionality, for the future, > > the > > >> > > > > separation > > >> > > > > > is > > >> > > > > > > > > > something we might want to tackle, that's why I've > > >> created > > >> > > this > > >> > > > > > > > proposal > > >> > > > > > > > > > page > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/InterfaceAndContentLanguageSeparation > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I am interested in what you think about the > variants. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > >> > > > > > > > > > Caty > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > > > > devs mailing list > > >> > > > > > devs@xwiki.org > > >> > > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > > > devs mailing list > > >> > > > > devs@xwiki.org > > >> > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > > devs mailing list > > >> > > > devs@xwiki.org > > >> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > >> > > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > devs mailing list > > >> > > devs@xwiki.org > > >> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Denis Gervalle > > >> > SOFTEC sa - CEO > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > devs mailing list > > >> > devs@xwiki.org > > >> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> devs mailing list > > >> devs@xwiki.org > > >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Denis Gervalle > > > SOFTEC sa - CEO > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Denis Gervalle > > SOFTEC sa - CEO > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > devs@xwiki.org > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > -- > Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhum...@xwiki.com) > Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS > Committer on the XWiki.org project > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > devs@xwiki.org > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > -- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs@xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
