On 25/01/16 9:21 PM, Rory McGuire via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Rikki Cattermole via
Digitalmars-d-announce <digitalmars-d-announce@puremagic.com
<mailto:digitalmars-d-announce@puremagic.com>> wrote:
On 25/01/16 8:16 PM, tsbockman wrote:
On Monday, 25 January 2016 at 07:03:35 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
The strategy should be "get rid of anything in Phobos that
can be put
out as a separate library".
This makes no sense as a standard: since neither DMD nor druntime is
allowed to depend upon Phobos, everything in Phobos *could* be
put into
a separate library.
I had a long post replying to Russel and to put it bluntly, its just
wrong.
We are most definitely losing people simply because they expect
certain code in the standard library. Like windowing and image.
Things like sockets are lower on their priority list.
In their mind we are not even a 'programming language'.
Phobos does need to be bigger, but not fully inclusive.
If most people won't use something, don't add it.
Sure there is arguments against this, but there is a certain amount
we must standardize and agree upon as a community. Phobos most
certainly is the place to do this. Otherwise we will be going round
in circles for a much longer period then we should and not growing much.
I'm going to quote you there: to put it bluntly you are plain wrong.
We do not, and no one does, need a kitchen sink standard library. Look
at python, look at Go, these are two of the fastest growing languages
out there. They are:
- Extremely easy to pick up and use.
- Have excellent documentation and simple naming conventions
- Have fantastic 3rd party open source libraries
Nope just no.
I am only talking about newbies here.
They will pick distributions of Python that are all encompassing.
http://winpython.github.io/#overview
When it comes to newbies who come into programming seeing from all of
their previous experience that things like GUI toolkit just comes with
the language they just don't care if it was provided "extra" by a
distribution or by the language itself. Only that they did exactly 0
beyond importing and using it.
During my degree, the final programming class was Python.
Everyone used WinPython except me. At the time pip didn't even work in
it. Yes you heard me correct.
When they had to use other code, they had no way or will to even try
what wasn't part of it and so in their eyes what they had downloaded was
Python. Because it really does appear to be Python.
Especially with the IDE and QT being part of it...
And right here is the problem. They expected and there it was.
You will see this in every language. From Java to PHP.
The community in general misses the point here time and time again.
It wasn't until recently that Adam saw how bad things were just to add
some context.
How does one find the "right" library for a task?
- The community refers devs to their preferred / popular libs
- There are excellent tutorials / how-tos that show case the library
If we spent less time fussing of what gets into phobos and more time
making good libraries for code.dlang.org <http://code.dlang.org> and let
the best ones win out we'd get much better stuff much quicker.
And I agree with you. As long as we have the bare bones in Phobos such
as windowing and image library we can actually fight over GUI toolkits.
Instead of repeatedly doing the same code over and over poorly.
