On Sun, 19 May 2013 22:25:49 -0700, Tyler Jameson Little
<beatgam...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've been looking into trying to fix QtD, but it seems writing a binding
to a C++ library is a bit complicated. I've read on the forums that a
native D GUI toolkit is the most desirable long-term, so I'd like to
start that discussion.
First off, I've heard of the DWT project, which looks promising, but it
seems like a direct port of Java's SWT instead of a reimagining using
idiomatic D. I understand the allure here (works, little translation for
new developers), but since it's not yet in Phobos, I can only assume
it's still up for discussion.
Personally, I want these features:
* simple and extensible
* minimal components (something like HTMLs feature-set)
* custom components (embed OpenGL/direct frame buffer)
* "native" window decorations by default, but can provide custom
decorations
* markup (like QML) or programmable (like SWT)
Nice-to-haves:
* hardware accelerated (2D OpenGL)
* GUI designer (much easier with QML-esque markup)
* part of Phobos
I'm willing to lend a hand, but I'd like to know in what direction the
community would like to go. I'd also like to know the likelihood of
getting a GUI toolkit into Phobos.
Thoughts?
So I've been around D a while pushing for native D UI toolkit. And here
are a few trends I've seen in the community.
* There is a deep-seated distrust of any toolkit that does not use the OS
Native UI widgets. The people in this community prefer native toolkits to
the point of jihad. Now I am a XAML guy myself, and I saw the light a long
time ago, but around here, the majority are still command line gurus.
* There is absolutely no chance of inclusion in Phobos, and to-be-honest I
don't think it really belongs there. GUI toolkits are too use-case
specific to belong in a standard library. However, if we can make (and I
think we can) a truly cross-platform UI toolkit, we can make a stronger
case for using at a standard UI toolkit.
* Nobody believes that we can do it, you'll hear a lot of moaning about
how much work it is. My reply to that is: And Linux is such a piece of
cake right? It's only the most widely used kernel on the planet.
Here's the deal. Building a GUI toolkit, particularly a useful one, is a
massive undertaking. WPF is the single largest library in all of .NET.
IIRC it weighs in at 40,000 classes. Building a UI toolkit in D will
require something that D itself does not. A highly dedicated team of
people with many diverse skills. The project is simply too big for a
single person.
Part of the problem with UI toolkits is the number of skills you'll need
for the team. Graphics programmers who can make GPU's sing, API designers
who can make it easy access, UI designers capable of replicating the looks
of each OS. Experts for each targeted OS. And I can think of more.
My point here is not to be discouraging, I want a UI toolkit with
capabilities similar to WPF in D probably more than anybody else here. But
I want to be realistic about the effort required. The dedication required
is immense, you'll be writing code for months before you even get anything
on the screen.
Here is another factor to consider. A UI toolkit must be designed. You
won't have the luxury of Phobos of design-by-iteration simply because
you'll be throwing out entire systems. For example a fairly complete
render path is required before you can show anything on the screen. But
what happens when your render-path is too OS specific? Oops, you pitch
months of work and start over from scratch. But now you have to rebuild
everything you've built on top of it. Do that a few times and you'll give
up because you can never seem to get anywhere. The smart thing to do is
sit down with a knowledgeable group of people and design the system, the
design doesn't have to be perfect or complete, but it does need to provide
a framework to work within and vision to guide the team.
Lastly, we'll need something that D doesn't have much of, but Linux does.
Leadership. You can't pull together something this complex without someone
or someones holding the bigger picture in their heads, otherwise you'll
end up with a mish-mash of contradictory merged pulled requests.
In my experience in Open-Source, it's never a problem to find people who
have vision and want to lead a project. The problem is finding people who
agree with the vision enough to help without wanting to be in charge
because they really know better. FOSS's major drawback is the ridiculous
amounts of duplication. I don't see a WPF-style UI toolkit as duplication
because as near as I can tell there is nothing like WPF in the OSS world,
but, everybody has their own opinion about HOW it should be done and
almost nobody is willing to swallow their ego, quit sweating the small
stuff, and work towards a common goal, even if they don't agree 100%.
A UI toolkit in D would be a fantastic showcase for demonstrating just how
powerful D is. But make no mistake, it will not be easy getting it done.
--
Adam Wilson
IRC: LightBender
Project Coordinator
The Horizon Project
http://www.thehorizonproject.org/
