I can't write a proper response now, but I'd like to address your and
Nikolaus's statements on what you called "misinformed statements":
Please take a look at context. I have stated what would be needed to get a
full, "modern" browser integrated into a GNUstep-centric environment.
There are two lists:
- one of what browsers do, but SWK and Vespucci don't (webrtc, webgl, etc);
this is not necessarily what SWK should do
- and another of what a browser should have to be integrated with
GNUstep-centric environment;
- think, for example, of Firefox with GS's save panel, menus and theme
- don't think of Vespucci and SWK which obviously already use GS's UI
elements et al
- think of wrapping full-blown WebKit or Blink engine (possibly through a
wrapper) so it is drop-in usable by Vespucci
- This is what was brought up previously by Gregory and me in form of
wrapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_Embedded_Framework
Does that clarify? :-)
On Fri, Dec 4, 2015, 09:22 Riccardo Mottola <riccardo.mott...@libero.it>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> >
> >> There are really good engines that support running web-based
> >> applications well.
> >
> > Yes, they have become really big beasts to support thousands of pages
> > of standards.
>
> Yes. Unmanageable beats of humongous size which trash you computer now
> and then. I work in the cloud everyday with 4 different browsers open.
> At the end, they all suck, just differently. They are amazingly complex
> and it is a miracle they do work, and they do, just not 24/7.
>
> I really like a small and fast browser to do a quick lookup on the web.
>
> I would really like to have an engine easy to embed a help view, a
> documentation view or whatever.
> I find it ridiculous that on Mac or Window syo uopen documentation and
> you see your application grind because it is opening up one of these
> "monsters" to display a simple page.
>
> If you only have a SUV or a pickup, when you go to the city, you are out
> of place. Use a VW up! or a Smart. When you go on a track then, a Land
> Rover or an Unimog might more appropriate.
>
>
> >> Yet even long-standing, reasonably well written engines such as
> >> Opera's Presto are being dropped.
>
> Yes. As a long time user of Opera, I am saddened by this. The new Opera
> uses Chrome's engine. While certain sites behave better, Opera is now
> slower, consumes more memory, was worse typography and stopped providing
> some unique features.
>
> Opera was my "quick browser" to look up something without killing my
> computer. A quick look at documentation, a quick search on wikipedia.
> Now it has no real use anymore. now it is just another browser and I use
> it less and less, I can just use Firefox.
>
> >
> > A good GNUstep browser would use an existing engine, but integrate
> > with a GS-centric environment:
> >> - by using GNUstep's theme for its chrome,
> >
> > Isn't that working out of the box? Vespucci & SWK just use the NSView
> > subclasses provided by GUI.
>
> It does! again, Misinformed statements. By its native nature, SWK needs
> no crap: it just draws your buttons with GS! That is, theme GS and your
> form elements will look perfect.
> Actually, I suppose we will have a problem when trying to style these
> elements as certain websites do. But between the two evils, I want to be
> native when I can.
> For what I wnat SWK this is perfect. A WebView is really a good citizen
> that looks like other views
>
> This comes out of the box.
>
> >
> >> - by exposing GNUstep's Services in its textboxes and for its images,
> >> - by using GNUstep's save panels, by understanding the concept of
> >> bundles,
> >
> > what do you mean/expect by that?
>
> It does all that. These are misinformed statements. It it does not it
> means some code is missing and can be done.
> But since it is a proper citizen, being native, it integrates already
> with services. You can select text and run a service, copy&paste RTF
> (yay, because it is!) and just enjoy life.
>
> >
> >> - by storing its preferences and cache inside GNUstep's folder
> >> structure (~/GNUstep/),
> >
> > AFAIK it uses NSUserDefaults and WebPreferences which can be adapted
> > to GNUstep's folder structure (if they don't do already).
>
> It does, actually, since both SWK and Vespucci are "full" GNUstep
> citizen, more than ANY port of WebKit or Gecko will ever be ("by
> definition") the are also well behaved citizens- They respect your GS
> evnironment and put preferences, caches etc where they should be.
>
> To me it clearly looks that you are ciriticizing something you didn't
> even take the time to compile.
>
> >
> >> - by registering web shortcuts (e.g. .url files) with GNUstep's
> >> extension registry,
> >> - by using GS menus (whatever they are as configured by the user) and
> >> therefore by using GS-like keyboard shortcuts
> >
> > What is missing there?
> >
> >>
> >> Providing an alternate implementation for use by Vespucci seems useful.
> >
> > You can extend Vespucci and replace SWK if you like. It should in
> > theory be as simple as replacing the WebKit.framework or linker search
> > path.
> >
> > But I don't want to argue at all against any alternatives to SWK and
> > Vespucci. I just make aware that "something" exists.
> > The alternatives may be much better and easier to develop, but do not
> > exist.
>
> Exactly. Vespucci is just a little small app, on Mac I can build it
> against SWK and WebKit (1.x) easily and compare. I have done that
> exactly to be able to debug SWK itself.
>
> Do you want an alternative to Vespucci? Write it.
> Do you want an alternative to SWK? Write it. If you write it well and
> has the same basic API as SWK, you can just test it with Vespucci.
>
> >
> > If we would contribute as much code as we recently started to write
> > e-mails what *should* be done, there would be more progress :)
> >
> +1
>
> We have this issue on this mailing list often
>
> That said, I remark that it is unlikely and for me not even desirable
> for SWK to become Gecko, (think of S both as Simple as Small), it could
> become something usable with a reasonable amount of work.
> I would say 1month of Nikolaus excellent coding capabilities plus the
> equivalent time of a GS Gui hacker (e.g. Fred) and me. But it is not
> probably going to happen any time soon, although it has been fun up to now.
>
> Riccardo
>
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