Firstly, Thank You for all of your responses. I will definitely create a wiki page about this topic on wiki.documentfoundation.org
I have already created an account. just as a heads up... this is my first wiki page creation.. are there any pages where there are specific rules (criteria) or tips, where i could put my wiki page? that can be given when creating a wiki page. I will ask this in in ask.libreoffice.org.. as well.. and i will discuss this topic on zotero forums as well, i think Fabian, is right that there should be more integration with zotero and libreoffice. at the moment I don't have much time for me to create a fully featured wiki page.. for discussion about referencing systems in libreoffice... but I can create a document which will outline information about the referencing systems as a draft, which I can then transfer the content over to the wiki page creation. I think that is the best approach! ljelly. On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 2:43 AM, Fabian Rodriguez <[email protected]>wrote: > On 07/15/2012 09:02 AM, lj wrote: > > In response to Fabian: > > > > Proposing ideas and bug fixes and changes in proprieterary software > > probably isn't the right direction unless libreoffice have developers > that > > are working in partnership on referencing systems in proprieterary > > software. Which I believe at this stage they do not. > We agree on that. > > Before going any further, I'd urge you to follow Charles advice and > formalize a wiki document with your ideas/proposal. Otherwise this will > live and die here in the mailing list unless there is some extraordinary > new, numerous groups of LibreOffice + bibliography users here :) Keep in > mind you may be proposing something that already exists in other > projects (see below). > > > I understand your example with microsoft onenote. A program I have used > > myself, and I can understand its innovation and ideas, but that software > > has broadened markets such as being available on different hardware, etc > > the iOS platform and the Internet with storage of Microsoft skydrive. > My main criteria for using software is it must be free, open source. > Close second is being as good or better. If you look at mobile > applications for Zotero, you'll see you can also use OwnCloud to store > its database of documents - hosted on your own server. I try to > reproduce the same functionality, or better, with free, open source > software integration. I briefly comment on such experiments either on > JoinDiaspora or G+: > https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1737364 > https://plus.google.com/102415554453485274892/posts/PskhYYaDMaR > > Of course the feature set *at the moment* is not complete. But it's more > often than not dictated by actual needs of its users, not mostly by > Microsoft or some other corporation which motivation #1 (and obligation > to shareholders) is profit. I also have greater influence and chances to > get fixes in such projects. > > With this in mind I find it more productive to bring closer the > communities of existing products like Zotero, OwnCloud and LibreOffice, > and have them build on each other's work. The goal that you are seeking > then looks closer to me. > > If I were to propose something to LibreOffice devs, it would be to > *completely remove the current bibliographic support* and > embrace/extend/integrate Zotero into LibO, perhaps as a default 3rd > party extension (much like happened recently with some grammar/spelling > dictionaries I believe). The current functionality is broken, unreliable > and requires careful understanding to wrok at a basic level, nevermind > at the same level as Zotero (with social sharing, remote storage, > standard formats, etc.). > > > In regards to the referencing system in LO. zotero is an extension that I > > have used with LO. Although it works very well with compatability with > LO > > its referencing systems are incompatible with Microsoft office. I think > > that is an issue with LO, and Microsoft office referencing systems. I > will > > confirm this from a email from zotero about this issue. > In my opinion you will get limited success and progress with this > approach. With the limited resources TDF has, I doubt any developer will > be working to make it easier for you to stay working with MS Office. A > better use of such resources would be to demonstrate and advocate the > use of Zotero + LibreOffice to your peers (or in the environment where > you seem to have no choice) - and fix whatever is missing to make it > easier for MS Office/Notes users to leave that platform. > > > As a result, I believe this is a main issue and concern with referencing > > systems in LO. compatability with properitary software referencing > systems > > etc MO. > Interoperability is important, but in this case I believe the main issue > is a component that is not critical to 100% of LIbO users, and several > interesting alternatives (including Zotero). So this is not going to get > critical priority assignment, IMO. > > Referencing systems and making bibliographies I believe in LO needs to be > > created for users with a simplistic default interface without add ons and > > extensions to avoid in compatability with different versions of software > > releases from zotero and LO. > You're describing what Zotero already does (including plugins!). Why > duplicate efforts? See my rationale above about getting those projects > working together, rather than reinventing such tools. > > > > My problem is having a reference from libreoffice and trying to use it on > > Mo. it is not compatible. > LibreOffice happens to have a basic tool for a bibliography database. > The problem is not incompatibility, the problem is having the > expectation it will become One Note (which is primarily to take notes, > not references, as I understand it) overnight (or "soon"). > > > But. The only way to make the software more compatible for users is to > > propose a new referencing system in libreoffice, that would allow the > > document to be read in a format in which both office suites would > > understand. An example would be PDF and integrating referencing > > compatabilities in a PDF. or referencing systems with .doc files. > > I'm still not clear about this topic. > I suppose that's possible, give OneNote's format: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onenote#File_format > > I'd argue with the limited/basic implementation in LibreOffice, you'd > have better chances to convince Zotero devs to approach this. Even then, > you would not be the first: > http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/4007/onenote-support/ > > Microsoft Word already "understands" Zotero quite well, BTW - via the > clipboard. Are you allowed to use a thirs party tool like Zotero at all? > > LO needs a new default referencing system because I believe it is not > > clear enough or fast enough to store references for users using > libreoffice > > writer. There are some confusing steps involved including using the > > bibliographic database where functions do not make sense. > > My opinion on this as I wrote above is it should be completely removed. > > > LO should consider options I believe to make referencing separate from > > libreoffice base and making 2 referencing systems. One that integrates a > > utility with storing references using endnotes and footnotes with a > simpler > > and faster design that can be used for advanced users in base to store > > multiple references for a main project, with a design that is based on > the > > storage of references only. This can be from books images videos and > > websites. and a simpler system for users that want to generate a > reference > > that is created with the usage of forms and detailed texts that can be > > linked to end notes and footnotes without the reference being stored in > > libreoffice base. > > > I encourage you to make a formal proposal, but *please* use Zotero for a > few weeks first/meanwhile. > > Most of your ideas seem to be already implemented there and I fear the > LibO project could use your help in many more productive ways! > > Cheers, > > Fabian Rodriguez > http://libreoffice.magicfab.ca > > > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [email protected] > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [email protected] Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
