On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 9:33 AM [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Monday, July 26, 2021 07:36 PM IST, "Udo Grabowski (IMK)" < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > On 26/07/2021 14:51, [email protected] wrote: > > > On Monday, July 26, 2021 05:34 PM IST, "Udo Grabowski (IMK)" < > [email protected]> wrote: > > >> On 26/07/2021 13:35, [email protected] wrote: > > >>> cross-posting since i accidentally addressed this one to > omnios-discuss the first time. sorry. > > >>> > > >>> i have noticed a trend amongst communities oriented towards building > open source unix-like operating systems; the project starts off as being > quite lean, but then acquires a lot of fat due to dependence on the > non-core toolkit. > > >>> > > >>> from the illumos perspective, i would say, "core" would be the > kernel + userland, all written using a combination of ansi-c and the system > default shell (korn). > > >>> > > >>> afaik, 'ips' is built using python which supposedly coordinates > between minisat (written in ansi-c), the userland and some mechanism to get > files off the network. > > >>> i am not yet clear about how 'ips' works, and i am working at > overcoming that by consulting "till wegmueller" who has written a couple of > implementations of 'ips' using different programming languages (it think; > go and rust), but, it would be worthwhile to get a broader input from those > in the community who were from "sun microsystems" as to why python was > chosen over ksh93. > > >>> > > >>> also, after an email thread on omnios-disucss, it has been revealed > that there are a bunch of tools on the base system which depend of 'gnu' > bash, is there any way that could be rectified? or is that issue only > within omnios and not addressable by the illumos community at large? > > >>> > > >>> is there any way the illumos community could get interested in > shedding it's fat even at the userland level? > > >> > > >> Even if many here agree that, e.g., bash (or gnu tools in general) is > > >> nothing we really want here, you cannot ignore its dominance > elsewhere, > > >> especially in the Linux domain where most of the software we like to > > >> provide also is targeted at nowadays. So if you want to have the > ability > > >> to ever compile anything coming from upstream, or even enable your > users > > >> to compile other software they download for themselves, you have to > > >> provide all that "fat" if you don't want to constantly rewrite what > > >> you've pulled. Whining to upstream about that will do nothing, you > will > > >> be simply ignored... That's the reality today, you have to cope with > > >> that. > > >> > > >> The same applies (even more) for python. And ksh93 has been obsoleted > > >> in Linux, so guess what happens next in the foreseeable future... > > >> > > >> If you don't want to be left completely isolated quickly, you have to > > >> adapt. > > > > > > udo, your logic is flawed. > > > if you think that just because ksh93 being obsoleted under linux > should be reason enough to move to some other tool like python, then going > by that rationale, we should all be moving our bases over from illumos to > linux, yeah right, if you don't want to be left completely isolated > quickly, you have to adapt! > > > > That is exactly what I'm expecting and planning for our group ... > > they've demanded it for years now. > > that would be great going for the illumos community. > shedding fat as well as those people who aren't genuinely interested in a > positive future for illumos would go a long way for the overall health of > the project. > hope you would be a good person and not bad mouth the project and > community after you've left. > There's never any reason at all to be insulting, and doing so makes you less likely to get any assistance or cooperation. My experience with multiple Linux distros, Illumos, Windows, and FreeBSD is that you're more likely to have success finding a distribution that does what you want in the 1st place than trying to pressure an existing project to do what you want. Especially when there's already been a lot of effort sunk into *not* doing what you're asking for. Having descended from a server OS (OpenSolaris) and hewing fairly close to Oracle Solaris in capability, Illumos can't reasonably be expected to be minimal. There are many minimal and heavily customizable distros out there, mostly based on Linux. Raspberry Pi OS (Lite), Arch Linux, Alpine Linux, Puppy Linux, and Void Linux come to mind. I would also encourage you not to equate install ISO (which often contain the entire base repo for offline installs) size with base install disk and RAM usage. Lastly, even decade-old hardware runs "fat" distros just fine with no issues, and RAM for those machines is relatively inexpensive and widely available. I have Debian 10.2 and openSUSE Tumbleweed with KDE running on 2011 2C/4T machines just fine. > ------------------------------------------ illumos: illumos-discuss Permalink: https://illumos.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/T8b661f3611aef44c-M31c0d210ab711f780c4e508c Delivery options: https://illumos.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/subscription
