On Thu, September 6, 2007 7:19 pm, RÄzvan Sandu wrote: > Hello Marco and all, >
>>> it becomes increasingly critical that we *quickly* migrate from binary >>> Microsoft documents... directly to ODF In case it weren't clear enough from my initial answer, I agree on the fact that it is crucial to migrate directly and as quickly as possible to ODF when it comes to production, archival and interchange of _new_ documents. > Many non-technical people don't give a damn on the format they use. Ofd course. This is why I said the problem is not a technical one. > At home, they will continue to send Microsoft files by e-mail if this is > what they have at hand (please see sentence below where you've said that > old files are "neutral" in this game). What people do at home with their own files on their own computers is only their business, as is the responsibility to decide which files they want to preserve and how (ASCII is enough for simple texts, for example). Old files _are_ neutral. Only files which are of public interest and/or must be shared with other people matter (when we talk of enforcing policies among the general public, that is). In this context, if I have 1000 .doc files on my own computer, but I only have to send you one, what matters is to convert that one to ASCII, ODF or PDF/A before sending, a task that could be done manually. > on a computer where a system administrator installed OpenOffice.org and > converted all files to ODF, they *never* return to MS Office. Until they must open or send, as a requirement to study or stay in business, a .doc or xls file with macros, formulas or similar problems. If we didn't need to _exchange_ or _preserve_ digital files, there would be no problems. > > At work, you took only the case of American-style, well-organised > companies where *a CTO has the administrative right (in written decision > by upper management) to decide what file format is being used*. a large organization without such policies and the power to enforce them has much more urgent ICT problems than file formats: fighting viruses coming from every corner, piracy and so on, so I'm not sure this is relevant. > the upper management don't give a damn about what file format > employees use, as long as anyone can open and share it with > minimal costs. Again, this is an accurate description of the situation today and a proof that the problem is not technical but cultural. In these scenarios, all you need to do to stop the real damage is simply install an ODF plugin for MS Office. Let's try to increase the development of that, rather than converters of files which probably nobody will read or need anymore (note that such a plugin could be also used as the converter that you want). And let's lobby for laws that make ODF the only format acceptable for long term archival of public files, or interchange of files with Public Administrations. > The vast majority of Romanian network administrators I know don't have > nether this ethical stature nor "political" motivation to change formats. This is a political/ethical/cultural problem. Not a technical one: until you keep trying to manage it in that way, you are going to fail. Its real solution doesn't belong to sysadmins, so it doesn't really matter if they have no stature or motivation. You need to convince everybody else that it is a good thing for many reasons if new documents are only produced in ODF. > In my company, I have a hard time convincing architects and designers... > not to send (proprietary) .cdr files by e-mail to others... They simply > ignore the issue, rudely. but then how can you still think that converting old files by force will solve anything? > The World is made by people, companies or individuals, most of > them non-technical. Then why do you believe you can fix human nature with technical means? >You will never achieve the desired goal (large ODF adoption) if you > don't (gently) *push* users in that direction. My first, irrational, half-joking, gut answer to such a statement would be "so much for "free as in freedom" software...". More seriously, I agree that you must push people in the right direction. But the right thing to do is to concentrate as much energies as possible on making ODF mandatory in certain contexts. You can convert files automatically every night, but as long as a public employee who can't be fired or fined for doing so keep sending you .doc files or accepting only .doc files, you're wasting time, in my opinion. > If you *only* count on their ethical desire for freedom, it will > be a total failure. Sadly, yes. That's why you must talk money too. > In Romania, democracy is far from perfect yet... State *forces* you to > use Microsoft software, same here and in many other countries. And how does a file converter solve this? > I'm sure Romania is by no way a particular case. Yes, real life is still much the same in many other countries. > So do you expect officials or politicians like these to met and, by their > initiative, decide to enforce free formats in public administration, for > ethical motivation? Please be serious... What I said is that your proposal is either ineffective, unnecessary or undoable. As in "if we must work and make pressure for idealistic things, let's at least choose those who are right and most effective at least in principle". >>> - maybe we can use the existing converter code to obtain a plugin for >>> amavisd-new... > in the mean time, would you mind if only ask for the *technical > possibility* to convert those attachements on the fly ? Of course I don't mind. I've simply pointed out that it doesn't make much sense. > Please think what happens if, in a company where upper management is not > interested at all in IT matters, a network administrator choses to > *reject* CEO's incoming mail because it's Microsoft format. >I allow him other 5 seconds before being fired. but you believe that a sysadmin that causes incoming files to look misformatted because he set up without permission an automatic converter which by definition cannot be 100% successful will last much longer??? > On the other hand, if CEO's secretary receives an .odt file instead of > .doc, she will probably call IT deparment only because she's not familiar > with "these damned OpenOffice.org menus" Unless it's a pirated copy, if the secretary or the CEO already have MS Office installed, install the sun plugin (and support _that_ development) and set it up with ODF as the default format. This is immensely cheaper, easier, ligther, more effective and intrinsically right than forcing everybody to those "damned OO.o menus". pushing Odf as the one universal format means that nobody is forced anymore to use OO.o to keep ownership of his or her files,that is to be free. > In a happier case, she won't even notice. and in the real case, you'll soon be fired, get transferred or get an official reprimand, depending on local labour laws. See above. > But in both cases the goal is reached: only ODF files enter in the > company No. Until people send Office files, many of them will contain macros or similar which cannot be translated. And you're still achieving nothing that couldn't be done with much less effort with an Office plugin set on ODF as default format. > I didn't even knew that an utility called "docvert" exist. Is it on > Windows? On Linux? It's php + OO.o, and it is at http://docvert.org. See there for details, or ask its developer. > Of course *new* files have priority, but - for the reasons stated above - > I'm not so sure that old files are so "neutral". I would like *very much* > a possibility to convert them really easily - even if it won't be needed > to actually use this tool very much. Set (or patch) OO.o to save as ODF as default without prompting the user. Or install the ODF plugin for MS Office. > I've read the article you've pointed us to and I find it true and very > interesting > (http://robertogaloppini.net/2007/04/01/file-format-hidden-traps-in-opendocument-or-any-other-open-standard-and-how-to-avoid-them/ > ) Thanks! Please spread the word and let me know if anybody else thinks the same. > I also think that people at the FSF, Richard Stallman and their lawyers > would be the best persons to give us some advices on what to do to avoid > the patents issue in this area. Please note that RMS and the FSF want only Free _software_, whereas Free _formats_ can be managed equally well with proprietary software. This is a point that should not be overlooked if you ask for help from there. The Opinions section at http://digifreedom.net contains a few musings of mine on these subjects if anybody's interested. Back on topic, that is promoting ODF and making it widely used asap: I also always welcome, for the activism and resources sections of the same website, links to Digitally Free Schools (which only want and distribute files in Free formats, even when they don't use FOSS) and to bad public website. Ciao, Marco -- Help *everybody* love Free Standards and Software: http://digifreedom.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
