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I am interested in any articles/reports on ICT trends in the Middle
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] - SLC
A clip from the chat transcript:
middle_panda: question: people in the middle east have had greater
access to information in the past 5 years because of the Internet and
independent news sources like Al-Jazeera. How has this changed
prospects for democracy? Do you think there will be a crackdown by
governments against the press such as we are seeing in Iran?
saad_ibrahim: Let me say that the communication revolution is
something we should welcome. It is definitely helped democratization
and human rights. The governments are concerned of course, but they
cannot do anything about it. They will try to fight it but it is a
losing battle. It is a winning battle for advocates of human rightrs.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 06:42:05 -0700
From: Digital Freedom Network <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [DFN-News] Egyptian democracy activist Saad Eddin Ibrahim chats
with DFN
DIGITAL FREEDOM NETWORK: Human rights and cyber-rights news
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In spite of his plight, an optimist
URL: www.dfn.org/voices/egypt/saad-chat.htm
(February 4, 2003) Today, Saad Eddin Ibrahim begins his final retrial to fight
two-year-old charges of fraud, accepting foreign funding without governmental
approval, and defaming Egypt by spreading false information. If convicted, the ailing
sociology professor and renowned democracy leader could serve seven years in prison.
Last week, Dr. Ibrahim spoke with DFN readers about conditions for democracy in Egypt
and in the middle east as a whole. Although facing an unknown future, Dr. Ibrahim
still maintained his characteristic objectivity throughout the conversation. The
transcript of the chat, slightly edited for clarity, follows below.
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Thur Jan 30 23:55:20 2003 {logging enabled}
DFN: For 30 years, Saad Eddin Ibrahim has been a strong voice for democracy,
intellectual freedom and peace in the Middle East. He is a professor at American
University in Cairo and also the founder and director of the Ibn Khaldun Center, a
think tank that promotes democratic reform in Egypt and the Arab world.
In May 2001, he was convicted by an Egyptian State Security Court of fraud, accepting
foreign funding without governmental approval and defaming Egypt by spreading false
information, and sentenced to seven years in prison. Mr. Ibrahim appealed the
sentence, but was found guilty once again in July 2002 in a retrial beset with
irregularities. He will be retried one final time on February 4 in Egypt's Court of
Cassation.
Because of his impending trial and in his best interest, Dr. Ibrahim will not be able
to answer questions about his court case. We ask that you limit your questions to
topics pertaining to Egypt and the Middle East.
Welcome Dr. Ibrahim! Do you have any introductory remarks?
Saad_Ibrahim: I am happy to be of service! I am grateful to all who have come today to
hear me.
bill: How do you feel about Libya becoming the Chair of the Human Rights Commission?
Saad_Ibrahim: I don't feel good about it at all. It is a misnomer to have Libya as the
chair. Libya has one of the worst records in human rights. I remember that from my
days as secretary-general of the Arab Human Rights Organization, in the first 4 years
on the job I received thousands of complaints of violations in Libya.
curtis: Can you tell us about any action that has been taken by the African Commission
on Human and Peoples' Rights?
Saad_Ibrahim: I am not aware of any action on that issue.
asad azfar: What are prospects for democratic reform in Egypt over the next 5 years?
Saad_Ibrahim: I am an optimist. I always look for the right spot. The prospects are
good. There is a growing middle class and a growing demand for democracy in Egypt and
all over the Arab world. I am optimistic even though I was a victim.
curtis: What is your opinion about the current situation concerning Iraq?
Saad_Ibrahim: Iraq—we are all very concerned, Curtis. We have been trying to find a
third way to spare us the agony of war but also to get rid of Hussein. We want to put
an end to the warmonger in Washington. We are not happy that they are leading the war.
We want to work with the peace movement in the States.
moderator: We are now chatting with Egyptian Professor Saad Eddin Ibrahim. Please feel
free to ask questions.
Bill: There have been some positive human rights/democracy role models emerging in the
region, such as Qatar, Morocco, and Bahrain. Do you see this as a trend?
Saad_Ibrahim: There is a trend. As I said earlier, I am an optimist. I am encouraged
by what happened in Morocco, and in Turkey as well. I hope there will be more models
of democracy.
asad azfar: Who is doing the most compelling work in Egypt in making the social
justice system work for under served communities that will affect the few who are
holding back.
Saad_Ibrahim: Well, asad, there are a number of organizations. Al Tajamua is one such
organization. The groups doing the most compelling work have adopted a twin mission:
human rights and democracy.
starr: Recently, Ms. Tahany el-Gebaly was appointed as Egypt's first-ever women judge.
Does this show a greater respect for women's rights within Egypt or do you think this
is what some people call a token appointment?
saad_ibrahim: Starr, whether this was a token or a genuine appointment, I welcome the
move and I see it as a sign that the regime is making moves toward democracy.
This is very objective analysis, considering the ongoing fight between me and the
government. But there are signs of progress: when Mubarak made January 7 a holiday,
this was a great milestone. January 7 is the Christmas for Copts. We hope that this
will be a trend.
curtis: Can globalism, in your opinion, be reconciled with at least minimal equality
around the world...especially for its poorest people?
saad_ibrahim: Curtis, yes...it depends upon how society mobilizes and upon the
goodwill of the silent majority. Globalization is a reality—it is not going away—and
the challenge is to make it work for everybody.
middle_panda: question: people in the middle east have had greater access to
information in the past 5 years because of the Internet and independent news sources
like Al-Jazeera. How has this changed prospects for democracy? Do you think there will
be a crackdown by governments against the press such as we are seeing in Iran?
saad_ibrahim: Let me say that the communication revolution is something we should
welcome. It is definitely helped democratization and human rights. The governments are
concerned of course, but they cannot do anything about it. They will try to fight it
but it is a losing battle. It is a winning battle for advocates of human rightrs.
asad azfar: Want to send our best wishes and prayers to you from everyone at Acumen
Fund.
saad_ibrahim: Yes of course, thank you.
starr: What do you think are the major influences on Middle Eastern governments'
decision making when it comes to paying more attention to human rights in their
countries?
saad_ibrahim: Starr, you know as I have said on this program already, the fight for
human rights is slow. The government realize this a worldwide movement and they are
grudgingly yielding. When I started in human rights 20 years, there were no human
rights organizations. Now there are at least 50 in the Arab world. It has been a
uphill fight, but we have persisted and we have won. My case is an example of the
changing trend. There are hundreds of thousands of people like me and we will continue
to make gains.
deborah hirsch: In an ideal world, what role would the US and/or the European Union
play in promulgating human rights in the Middle East?
saad_ibrahim: Deborah, traditionally, there has been a double standard used by
European countries. They have clamped down on countries they did not like and looked
the other way with countries they liked. It is changing now and the gap between the
two standards is narrowing.
geoffrey mock: There has been so much support for you among friends in the states, but
also concern that our efforts undermine your position in Egypt, make you seem less
legitimate. Is that a concern for you?
saad_ibrahim: Geoffrey, I welcome it. I don't care where my support comes from. A
human rights advocate must welcome all efforts of solidarity and support from wherever
it comes, and I definitely do.
curtis: Do you foresee any prospects for peace in Egypt's neighbor Sudan's civil war?
And what is Egypt's role in this process?
saad_ibrahim: I should hope so. I think the Egyptian government will come around and
understand that the civil war must come to end. The civil war has been going on for
over 40 years and the Sudanese are entitled to peace.
Moderator: We have about 15 minutes left to chat with Dr. Ibrahim. Please feel free to
ask your questions.
starr: What do you think of the call for Arab political reform from Saudi Arabia. Do
you think they will be adopted during the Arab Summit in March?
saad_ibrahim: I think they will be now that they are coming from a conservative Arab
state.
middle_panda: do you think u.s. aid to encourage democracy in the middle east will
assist the development of human rights and democracy in the region, or could it incite
more fundamentalism b/c it is being regarded as imperialistic?
saad_ibrahim: If the US persists, I think it will be welcomed by the fundamentalists.
Some of the organizations have asked me if the US is sincere. They are concerned that
the US will be accountable to its promises and whether they are playing politics. I,
myself, wonder if the US is sincere, but I am willing to give the US the benefit of
the doubt. A lot of countries, like Qatar, Bahrain, and Turkey, are taking steps
toward democracy and the US is interested in that. So I am calling on like-minded
Americans to keep the US on track with their positions.
Bill: Do you think a nation-building regime like in Afghanistan could work in Iraq if
Hussein is removed from power?
saad_ibrahim:Absolutely. It doesn't work well in Afghanistan so far. But it could work
better in Iraq because the country is far more advanced than Afghanistan. The
conditions are much better for nation-building.
middle_panda: Is there a difference between US and European and Japanese funding to
Egyptian HR NGOs receiving funds?
saad_ibrahim: There is not a marked difference. The difference is that European NGOs
are interested in gender and minority, while the US funding is for development and
capacity-building for NGOs.
curtis: Do you believe that the African Union can unite Africa...even in the very long
term?
saad_ibrahim: Curtis, the African Union can only work if every African country is a
democracy. If the agreements are made by autocrats and dictators, then there will be
no union. I firmly believe that only democracies can make this happen. For example,
Portugal and Spain could only have joined the EU when they became democracies. The
same thing applies to Africa. If we are serious about the Union, we have to make each
and every country a democracy.
Geoffrey mock: What lessons do you think we need to learn the Mubarak's government's
war against armed groups in Egypt , or be wary of, in the United States?
saad_ibrahim:Geoffrey, I would rather not answer.
Bill: Do you think that there is a legitimate fear that Iraqi Kurds could break away
from Iraq and form a greater Kurdistan, affecting neighboring countries such as Turkey?
saad_ibrahim: Bill, no. I do not think so. The current regime in Kurdistan recognizes
that the world will not recognize an independent state. I am sure there will always be
some Kurds who will want an independent Kurdish state, but that kind of hope will wait
for another 50 years.
Deborah hirsch: Your comments please on the state of affairs in Israel and Palestine.
saad_ibrahim: Deborah, obviously violence is still flowing on both sides.
I am hoping the new Sharon government will rise up to occasion and act like Menachem
Begin did. Begin was a hard-liner but he became a partner
in peace. We are hoping Sharon will also rise up to conclude his life with a peaceful
agreement with the Palestinians in the same way that Begin did with Sadat.
It is a no-win situation: the Israelis cannot subdue the Palestinians forever, and the
Palestinians recognize that there is no way that the Israelis will give in to all
their demands. I hope that compromise will be reached soon.
Moderator: Well, thank you for joining us today, Dr. Ibrahim. Do you have any final
thoughts?
saad_ibrahim: I would like to thank you and all those who communicated with me
tonight. I hope that all will follow the development of my case.
Moderator: Thank you everyone for joining us today. If you would like to find out
about more DFN events, please sign up for our Events e-mail list at URL:
www.dfn.org/subscribe/index.htm.
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