--- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, AB8XA <ab...@...> wrote: > > > On Jul 8, 2009, at 1:55 PM, k7ve wrote: > > > Do you (the reader) want to be part of the solution and future or > > grumble and keep the hobby stagnant and on a path to death? > > I guess in your eyes, those of us who can't or choose not to afford > Icom's grossly inflated D-Star products will be the death of the hobby > and hence aren't good hams, eh? No sir, it's the snobbery of big buck > equipment owners such as that you expressed which will kill the > hobby. Let me be perfectly clear that I am NOT addressing all those > here who have chosen to spend the bucks for D-Star--only those who > denigrate those who don't.
Nobody denigrated anyone here. D-STAR equipment from Icom costs more than analog equipment, no argument, but comparing apples to oranges doesn't prove anything. Grossly inflated just doesn't hold up. The hobby has stagnated, with a few exceptions (QRP and new interest in CW now that its not required come to mind), and continues to do so -- doing something new and interesting to the younger crowd (I'm 54, BTW - been a ham since I was 18 with one short gap due to up or out license rules of the 70s) it will die in its stagnation. Digital has more to offer than analog. > > > D-STAR is not expensive. > > The facts contradict you. I'm an all-Icom owner, IC-718, IC-208H, IC- > T7H, and now IC-91AD, but have to admit, Yaesu is the better bang for > the buck, even compared to Icom's analog products. If Icom really > cares for D-Star, THEY will quit holding it back by grossly > overpricing it compared to their own analog products, much less > others. You have bashed Yaesu and Kenwood but they're still selling > new analog radios (as is Icom), and their affordability is doing far > more to get new hams on the air than the overpriced whiz-bang > technology of D-Star. Kenwood is barely in the amateur business anymore. At least they offer a D-STAR radio in Japan (OEM Icom). I own several Yaesu pieces of equipment, including 3 HF rigs and 2 VX7Rs (1 of which is broken unfortunately) - I like Yaesu but it does not change the fact they have little interest in pursuing D-STAR - I also like that they don't gouge you on replacement parts. > > FT-60R $189.95 Dual-band, single-watch HT > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0060.html > NO D-STAR PATH > VX-6R $229.95 Tri-band, single-watch HT > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0666.html > NO D-STAR PATH > VX-7R Tri-band, dual-watch HT $287.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0777.html > NO D-STAR PATH > IC-91A Dual-band, dual-watch HT $294.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0091.html > > IC-91AD Dual-band, dual-watch, D-Star HT $369.98 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0091.html > D-STAR for $75.03 more than analog - the AMBE Chip and GMSK chip each cost over $20 (around $45 for the pair, plus the support chips, PCB, etc. - a little markup for Icom and some for the dealer) -- pretty darn reasonable I think. > IC-80AD New dual-band, dual-watch, D-Star HT $449.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/5180.html > New radio, which is single watch by the way -- brand new models are typically more expensive than those that have recouped the R&D expense. If its too much, buy a 91AD. > IC-92AD Dual-band, dual-watch, D-Start HT $539.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/5092.html I've been told Icom didn't think this would be a widely appealing radio, its specifically designed for EMCOMM types - You are paying a lot for the water proofing and mil-spec design. > > Single watch mobile (Icom to Icom): > > Icom IC-208H $299.95 - $20 rebate > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0208.html > NO D-STAR PATH (except using 9600 baud packet port and external components, which will probably run you about $200 and a lot of bailing wire and tape) > Icom ID-880H $499.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0880.html > > Dual watch mobile/: > Single watch --- actually and $200 more than its cousin the 208H - at least $50-100 more in components plus development costs. Not really a bad price for digital. > Yaesu FT-8900 $409.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0890.html > NO D-STAR PATH (except using 9600 baud packet port and external components, which will probably run you about $200 and a lot of bailing wire and tape) > Icom IC-2820 with UT-123 $519.95 + $259.95 = $779.85 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/2820.html > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/2820dprs.html > This is a bit pricier radio, I got mine when they were much newer and about $120 - $150 more. But it does have a lot of technology, not only integrated D-STAR but GPS as well. > No sir, as long as Icom has apologists such as yourself rationalizing > their high prices, they'll never come down to earth and become > mainstream. High prices are a function of perceived value for what you are getting. Now lets look at real pricing value. Sticker price is only part of the formula. In 1980 the venerable IC-2AT cost around $270 (with NiCad battery) -- it was a single channel (no memories), synthesized radio with thumbwheel frequency selection and toggle switch selection of a fixed 600 kHz repeater offset +/- and no CTCSS (See http://ham-shack.com/history34.html - or I probably still have the receipt somewhere.) in 2008-2009 dollars that radio would cost between $611.41 and $1,380.69 (see http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/) In 1980 a synthesized handheld was a big deal, new technology -- and really didn't drop in price that much while in production. Now lets take the brand new IC-80AD, a single watch 1000 channel, dual band radio wih all the goodies for Analog (DCS, CTCSS, automatic repeater offset, etc.) plus D-STAR with digital voice and data, GPS connection option, etc. at $449.95 -- it's price relative to the new 1980 IC-2AT is (have to use 2008 numbers, 2009 numbers would be slightly lower) between $87.99 and $198.70!!! (Cheap compared to the IC2AT) This is a much better value comparison between what you get for your dollar on new technology rather than comparing dissimilar radios (analog only vs. digital with analog) The closest comparison to an Icom D-DSTAR enabled radio is the now discontinued Kenwood D7-AG which had a $459 price tag or the Alinco DJ-596T + EJ-43U digital voice board (a radio that has been out long enough the R&D has been absorbed and a lot less technology) at $339.95 Its also interesting to note, top of the line, state of the art HF radios from both Icom and Yaesu cost essentially the same (IC-7800 v2 vs. FTDX9000MP) - not so indicting of Icom's pricing when you are comparing similar generation/technology radios. If you think D-STAR is something worthwhile, and that competing brands would bring the price down, beat up Kenwood and Yaesu, not Icom. Icom is pricing costs vs. demand. > > > Amateurs will eventually migrate to digital for VHF/UHF repeaters. > > Maybe, but that's far from being the case now. It's your dream. > > > I imagine that at some point, not soon, the ratio of digital VHF/UHF > > operations to analog FM will be similar to the ratio of SSB to AM > > transmissions on HF. > > Imagine/dream all you want, but the ratios are currently the opposite > of your imagination--and will be so for a very long time, since sales > of new radios, which is the only thing that will change the ratios, > are still strongly on the analog side. > You are just being argumentative here ... I said in the future, not now. > > Alinco - possibilities here for D-STAR radios. > > A dream, not reality. It's as equally likely the Hyundai/Kia of VHF/ > UHF will establish their own low-priced digital mode that will become > more popular than D-Star. They actually have one and its been in the marketplace for a number of years - gone nowhere especially in comparison to D-STAR. > > > There are non-Icom D-STAR components coming out shortly. > > More to dream about..a glimmer of hope. > Did you follow the links? > Sir, while in your eyes, you may be promoting D-Star, your rant (the > one you keep quoting yourself in follow-up messages) is probably doing > it more harm than good. > > -- > 73 de Moe > Your mileage may vary. DE K7VE
