On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:02 PM, Fann, Sarah Lynn <slf5...@uncw.edu> wrote: > Jane and rest of the ECOLOG listserve, > > Let's think critcally about the assumption that it is easy for bright > students who are poor to get funding for college. If that were true, wouldn't > we expect a significant portion of American children to be born poor, get > educated, and thus rise up through the socio-economic ranks? However, isn't > it a known trend that children born poor tend to stay poor and not get an > education? Doesn't this trend directly contradict the assumption that it is > easy for bright, poor students to get full funding for college?
No, it doesn't, and I didn't say it was easy, just that even a free ride was possible. (I graduated from UCLA without paying a dime.) When I said "bright", I wasn't referring to "inborn" intelligence but to the result of education. And that's the kicker. If a poor student has a solid high school program and good SAT scores, financial considerations are unlikely to prevent them from attending college. But few get the kind of K-12 education that will enable this. > In regards to the middle-class, I find it interesting that you dropped the > "bright" adjective to describe these students. Because Luanne's hypothesis was that cost was preventing TOP poor students from attending college, thus lowering overall performance. >Does that mean that we expect all students from the middle-class to attend >college? If that's true, than I expect it would be >harder, on average, for >middle-class students to get scholarships compared to poor students because >1) they represent a >broader range of capabilities, and only those considered >"best" are normally eligible for scholarships, and 2) there is a larger >>number of middle class students competing, thus the probability of any one >middle-class student getting a scholarship is less. Exactly. Plus, middle class students get less need-based aid. > Finally, if only a few bright poor students are getting into college, yet a > larger range of IQ's from other socio-economic classes >are getting into > school, than that would lend support to Luanne's hypothesis. The trends of > America's poor certainly seems to >lead to the conclusion that few poor > students are given the oppurtunity to attend college. On the other hand, it > is almost expected >that every middle or upper class child should attend > college. There's no question that cost is a barrier to higher education, but that's not the question that was being discussed. The question was, roughly, "Assuming there has been a decline in the average performance of college students in recent decades, can this decline be explained by rising college costs that prevent poor students with high IQs from attending college?". Therefore, only the situation faced by top-performing low-income students is relevant. Best, Jane _____________________________________ > From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news > [ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov [jane....@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:47 AM > To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] now I've seen it all: IQ > > I don't think this would be a very strong influence. Bright students > with little money get financial aid, sometimes to the point of a free > ride. It may be harder for middle-class students than for those who > are poor, but still, schools compete to get the really good students. > > Jane > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 1:47 AM, Luanne Roth <ro...@citytel.net> wrote: >> I have been wondering if the increase in the unequal distribution of wealth >> and the increased costs of higher education might be causing a large shift >> towards college students who fall into the middle of the bell curve. I >> recall reading at least one study which showed no relationship between >> wealth and IQ. If we are eliminating many high IQ students by income >> constraints and the bell curve has very little area under it at the high IQ >> end.... >> Luanne >> >> >> >> >>> At 12:18 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: >>>> >>>> I watched my evaluation scores decline when I switched to "active >>>> learning." I got tired of lecturing from powerpoints that the students >>>> could memorize, regurgitate on tests, and quickly forget. >>>> >>>> Somehow, it was unreasonable for me to expect the students to show up for >>>> the lectures prepared and willing to participate in class discussions. It >>>> was even more unreasonable for me to refuse to "just tell us what we need >>>> to >>>> know," when they couldn't answer very simple questions that I'd toss out to >>>> stimulate discussion. >>>> >>>> It was also unreasonable for me to expect them to ask questions relevant >>>> to the material we discussed in class. I had students complain they didn't >>>> learn anything from me, but it seems to me that if they weren't asking >>>> questions -- either in class, on class discussion boards, or via e-mail -- >>>> they couldn't have been trying very hard. >>>> >>>> Maybe I am unreasonable... >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> On 1/18/2010 12:17 PM, James Crants wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Val Smith<vsm...@ku.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I lay much of this decline at the feet of their parents, who seem to >>>>>> care >>>>>> progressively less and less about knowledge. I recall a particularly >>>>>> notable incident from over a decade ago, when my youngest daughter's >>>>>> grade >>>>>> school Principal retired. The new Principal unilaterally decided that >>>>>> Science Fair projects for grades 2-6 should become completely >>>>>> voluntary, >>>>>> rather than remaining as a formal requirement that had long been >>>>>> embedded in >>>>>> this school's outstanding science preparation curriculum. On the day >>>>>> of the >>>>>> science project evaluations, I expressed dismay about this undesirable >>>>>> change to another parent, who at that time was almost 20 years my >>>>>> junior. >>>>>> Her response was to shout across the room to her husband, "John (not >>>>>> his >>>>>> real name), this guy thinks everybody should have to do a science fair >>>>>> project, and /that this is all about learning science/!" and she then >>>>>> turned >>>>>> to me to say, "If everyone has to do a project, that lowers the chance >>>>>> that >>>>>> our child will win the Best Science Project award. That's unfair >>>>>> competition." And she walked away. >>>>> >>>>> As I was reading your post, I was hoping you would mention the role of >>>>> parents in any decline in the quality of the American education. >>>>> >>>>> I think it started with the baby boom. After the Depression and World >>>>> War >>>>> II, parents wanted the best for their children, but by providing the >>>>> best >>>>> materially, many raised children with an inflated sense of entitlement >>>>> and >>>>> self-importance. When these children raised my generation, self-esteem >>>>> was >>>>> seen as the most important quality you could promote in a developing >>>>> mind, >>>>> so many of us grew up feeling even more entitled and important. Also, >>>>> since >>>>> self-important people like today's parents don't respect authority >>>>> figures, >>>>> parents now tend to side with their children over teachers when there is >>>>> a >>>>> student-teacher conflict. Worse, since the entire class is, on average, >>>>> not as prepared as it should be to learn the material you're trying to >>>>> teach, disgruntled students can look to low average performance for the >>>>> whole class to assure themselves that it's your fault if they don't get >>>>> high >>>>> marks. With students and parents both blaming you for low grades, and a >>>>> low >>>>> class average apparently supporting their arguments, it's easiest to >>>>> lower >>>>> your expectations and standards. (And you'll probably get higher >>>>> teaching >>>>> evaluation scores if you do.) When you do, you end up passing on >>>>> students >>>>> who aren't prepared for the next level of education. >>>>> >>>>> I understand the importance of questioning authority, and Wendee >>>>> Holtcamp's >>>>> example of childbirth in American hospitals attests to that >>>>> importance (though I believe the doctors rush the delivery because >>>>> they're >>>>> trained to believe it's best for the patient, not because they put their >>>>> spare time ahead of patient care). However, there's an important >>>>> distinction between questioning authority and assuming authority is >>>>> wrong. >>>>> >>>>> With respect to the original conversation thread, while I certainly >>>>> agree >>>>> that it's a problem that people with the appearance of authority are >>>>> making >>>>> BS claims on television, I don't think that's the only major threat to >>>>> scientific authority. Another threat is the widely-held perception that >>>>> any scientist who thinks they know more than you do about their area of >>>>> expertise is arrogant (and wrong). Because scientific knowledge is >>>>> contingent on future results, scientists sometimes find themselves >>>>> admitting >>>>> that they were wrong about something. Unlike pundits or politicians, >>>>> scientists can't blame some other party, and people will hold onto those >>>>> errors as evidence that we're not as clever as we think we are, so they >>>>> can >>>>> ignore us if they don't like our message. Also, some people just don't >>>>> like >>>>> smart people much, so mistakes made by smart people are cherished as >>>>> proof >>>>> that they aren't so smart after all. >>>>> >>>>> Mind you, I have little evidence for most of the generalities I'm making >>>>> here, but this is just my model of why students seem to be less prepared >>>>> than they used to and why scientific authority doesn't get the respect I >>>>> think it should. >>>>> >>>>> Jim Crants >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> David M. Lawrence | Home: (804) 559-9786 >>>> 7471 Brook Way Court | Fax: (804) 559-9787 >>>> Mechanicsville, VA 23111 | Email: d...@fuzzo.com >>>> USA | http: http://fuzzo.com >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> "All drains lead to the ocean." -- Gill, Finding Nemo >>>> >>>> "We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo >>>> >>>> "No trespassing >>>> 4/17 of a haiku" -- Richard Brautigan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.137/2617 - Release Date: >>>> 01/12/10 11:35:00 >> > > > > -- > ------------- > Jane Shevtsov > Ecology Ph.D. candidate, University of Georgia > co-founder, <www.worldbeyondborders.org> > Check out my blog, <http://perceivingwholes.blogspot.com>Perceiving Wholes > > "The whole person must have both the humility to nurture the > Earth and the pride to go to Mars." --Wyn Wachhorst, The Dream > of Spaceflight -- ------------- Jane Shevtsov Ecology Ph.D. candidate, University of Georgia co-founder, <www.worldbeyondborders.org> Check out my blog, <http://perceivingwholes.blogspot.com>Perceiving Wholes "The whole person must have both the humility to nurture the Earth and the pride to go to Mars." --Wyn Wachhorst, The Dream of Spaceflight
