As Andrew Yost said: "Why does energy and matter organize itself through time to ask questions like why does energy and matter organize itself to ask....?"
Warren W. Aney Tigard, Oregon _____ From: Micah Moore [mailto:mmoore1...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, 20 May, 2010 12:30 To: Warren W. Aney; ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Science and Religion Dogmatic conflict? I agree, well said Mr. Warren. I will restate your words to see if I am on the same "wavelength". How could all energy arise from the "Big Bang" without everything being energy in some form? How is the "human" collection of energy able to study energy itself? How are hydrogen bonds, water or iron able to discuss themselves? How did the force of natural selection produce energy forms that "talk" about natural selection? Because the "words", science and religion exist, energy produced both of them, and it must have been present with all other energy released from the "Big Bang". As systems change (evolve), will there be intermediates(missing links) for majority of the energetic/genetic/behavioral recombinations(adaptations)? Respectfully, Micah J. Moore _____ From: Warren W. Aney <a...@coho.net> To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thu, May 20, 2010 1:33:02 PM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Science and Religion Dogmatic conflict? Why is there something rather than nothing? And why is some of this something aware of itself? And why is this self aware of the something? And why does it ask these questions? Are these questions best addressed by science or by religion? Or do they represent some of the areas where science and religion interface and interconnect? Warren W. Aney Senior Wildlife Ecologist Tigard, Oregon -----Original Message----- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of James Crants Sent: Wednesday, 19 May, 2010 07:37 To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Science and Religion Dogmatic conflict? I, too, appreciate Jane's contribution to this conversation. We can only speculate on the origins of religion, since religion originated long before written language, or even cave art (if neanderthal and modern human religion have a common origin; though I will agree with William Silvert that religion probably didn't come about because any gods revealed their existence to our ancestors). However, science can say something about what goes on in the brain when people have religious experiences, and perhaps it can say something about why some people seem to need religion while others couldn't be religious if they wanted to. It can tell us how similar the experience of meditation is to the experience of prayer, or getting mentally absorbed in an anthill, or drawing, or playing an instrument, or driving a car, and so on. Based on a biological understanding of religious experience, plus the archeological evidence, we can form models of how religion originated and evolved in modern humans, and how it is relevant to modern life. I do think the "naturalist's trance" is basically the same as a religious experience. I don't know of any hard evidence bearing on that, but the experience is similar to those I've had from meditation, intense prayer, playing music, painting pictures, and running much further than a mile or so. Such experiences say nothing at all about whether there is such a thing as divinity, but I think they have a lot to do with the origins of humanity's belief in divinity. Jim Crants On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Wayne Tyson <landr...@cox.net> wrote: > Ah-HA! > > I think she's GOT IT! By Jove, I think she's got it! The rain in Spain . . > . > > Eureka! Peak experiences! > > As in all art, the concentration of the intellect somehow gets "processed" > by our inner resources, and "breaks through" back into the conscious after a > period of gestation and there is a birth of insight. Burning bushes and > other hallucinations aside, just about all scientific discovery is thus > produced. > > WT > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Shevtsov" <jane....@gmail.com> > > To: <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 7:48 PM > > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Science and Religion Dogmatic conflict? > > > I think it's a mistake to reduce religion to >> anthropomorphism/explanations and morality/politics. There is a >> crucial third element -- the human capacity for spiritual (meditative, >> oceanic, transcendent, pick your favorite adjective) experiences. >> These experiences are now being studied by psychologists and >> neuroscientists (look up "neurotheology") and are often connected to >> experiences in nature. >> >> My hypothesis about the origins of such experiences is partially >> inspired by a passage from E.O. Wilson's book _Biophilia_. "In a twist >> my mind came free and I was aware of the hard workings of the natural >> world beyond the periphery of ordinary attention, where passions lose >> their meaning and history is in another dimension, without people, and >> great events pass without record or judgment. I was a transient of no >> consequence in this familiar yet deeply alien world that I had come to >> love. The uncounted products of evolution were gathered there for >> purposes having nothing to do with me; their long Cenozoic history was >> enciphered into a genetic code I could not understand. The effect was >> strangely calming. Breathing and heartbeat diminished, concentration >> intensified. It seemed to me that something extraordinary in the >> forest was very close to where I stood, moving to the surface and >> discovery. ... I willed animals to materialize and they came >> erratically into view." >> >> What does this passage, which describes an experience I suspect most >> members of this list have had, most resemble? It sounds a lot like how >> practitioners of some types of meditation describe their experience. >> But what is this "naturalist's trance" good for, other than science? >> Hunting, gathering and looking out for predators! Maybe, just maybe, >> this was our ancestors' normal state of consciousness and maybe >> various religious and spiritual practices arose as a way of >> recapturing this state as, for biological and social reasons, our >> minds changed. >> >> This is, of course, a guess, but what do you folks think? >> >> Jane Shevtsov >> >> >> >>
