In response to WT's PS, "Is my impression that the work of fire ecologists is largely ignored by firefighters valid or not?":
I assume you mean the federal agency fire fighters, whom we regularly see on TV battling blazes. Your impression might be from running into "seasonals", who are the temporary fire fighters whose job it is to take orders at the bottom of the paramilitary system. But I am actually quite impressed by the level of ecological knowledge shown by the new generation of permanent staff fire fighters and their middle management (fire management officers, rangers, etc.), who these days are more appropriately called fire managers, as they spend much of their time lighting prescribed fires and monitoring natural fires for ecological purposes. I am on the federal fire fighter teaching circuit teaching ecology sections, so I can say that ecology is a large part of their required training these days as they gain their prerequisites to move up in the ranks in the National Wildfire Coordinating Group training schedule. I find our students generally to be eager and personally passionate ab! out doing the right thing to restore and properly manage natural ecosystems, which I find very encouraging. Of course there is room for more education, as for all of us, but I would say that red tape, financial constraints, and too-broadly applied directives from higher levels off-site are generally a greater barrier to ecologically sound fire management than knowledge within the unit being managed. I would actually say that this is a success story of ecological research being applied on the ground. There is an excellent book written by Ashley Schiff called "Fire and Water: Scientific Heresy in the Forest Service", which documents the battle within the agency between scientists who understood the ecological need for well managed fire and the idealogues who wanted to teach that all fire was bad to give Smokey Bear a consistent message in the campaign to reforest America. Schiff's book ends somewhere in the 1960s with only modest progress on the part of the scientists, but their struggle was not in vain. Forest Service representatives who understood the need for fire were at the first Tall Timbers Fire Ecology Conference in 1961, along with Herbert Stoddard, Roland Harper, and many other of our heroes, where it is believed the term "fire ecology" was coined. That conference series provided the first body of research on fire ecology from which the agencies could draw w! hen they finally decided to do so, and fire ecology has expanded exponentially and internationally, now represented by several conferences each year. Admittedly, the decision to turn to science was accelerated by the catastrophic results of 100 years of fire suppression in the western U.S., precipitating efforts such as the Joint Fire Sciences Program, which currently funds millions of dollars of fire management and ecological research relating to fire each year. They have most recently funded consortiums across the country with the purpose of "putting fire science on the ground", including our own Southern Fire Exchange, as part of which I can say a tremendous effort is being made to reach fire managers with ecological knowledge. That was too long, but the take home message is fire fighters are headed in the right direction and ecologists can take a lot of credit for it. Kevin Kevin Robertson, PhD Fire Ecologist Tall Timbers Research Station and Land Conservancy 13093 Henry Beadel Drive Tallahassee, FL 32312 krobert...@ttrs.org office: 850-893-4153 ext. 254 mobile: 850-508-5499 -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Tyson [mailto:landr...@cox.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 10:32 PM To: Kevin Robertson; ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Ecology Promoting Understanding Re: [ECOLOG-L] Reply to: 'a few thousand ecologists meet... does anybody know or care?' -- A perhaps radical suggestion Ecolog: While I do agree with almost everything that has been said in these posts as well as those responses received off-list (50% negative, 50% positive; pretty good for me), I hope to ride on Kevin's coattails too, in addition to high-fiving Kali again, and clear up some confusion an off-list respondent enlightened me about. The respondent said, in part, "I simply found both your comments to consist of accusations about ecologists being guilty accusing others ("fingerwagging" and "insults"). What do those complaints have to do with the ESA meeting being more open to the general public and better covered in the media? How do they contribute to better public understanding of what ecologists do?" First, I was thinking about the generic problem, not about the ESA, but I can see how, because of the context of Kali's and others' remarks, how I could have left that impression. It was not my intention to indict ESA, anyone in ESA, or "all" ecologists without exception; I think the respondent's reaction erred in the interpretation of my remarks--I don't believe that anything I said justified an interpretation that I was accusing any particular person or entity. I suggest that my "accusations" of fingerwagging and insulting language hit the mark all too often; those not guilty should not feel gored by them. In fact I presume that most ecologists who are subscribers to this list are NOT guilty of such transgressions, but neither do I doubt that a significant number may be. It is that fraction to whom my remarks are directed. I am, and was, well aware that some might feel a sting of guilt; hell, I am not without sin in this department either. Time was, I may have been among the worst offenders. But none of us who shoot off our mouths and write in public should curl up into a fetal position of denial or simply lash out when criticized. Too often the wails of the wounded serve to chill such discussions with accusations of "inappropriate" behavior. That stifles change. Worst of all, it keeps students like Kali from speaking their minds. That could open up another debate: What keeps students from speaking up? Are they encouraged by their professors and peers or discouraged? Why should they be relegated to the card table in the kitchen? What do students at ESA have to say? I hope I have made it clear that I think it is high time that "ecologists" took a good, hard look in the mirror (or at our portrait behind the drapes) and started finding ways to examine the impact of what we do say in public and how we do it. Either there is room for improvement--significant improvement--or there isn't. That can be the subject of reasoned debate. I break the arrow. WT PS to Kevin: Is my impression that the work of fire ecologists is largely ignored by firefighters valid or not? "If you want a man's cooperation, it's best not to threaten him!" --Ralph Yarborough ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Robertson" <krobert...@ttrs.org> To: "Wayne Tyson" <landr...@cox.net>; <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:07 AM Subject: RE: [ECOLOG-L] Reply to: 'a few thousand ecologists meet... does anybody know or care?' -- A perhaps radical suggestion I appreciate Kali's post and the posts that have followed. As a researcher at a research station with a commitment to outreach and extension to landowners and the general public, I can say that bringing ecology to people can be done, but it takes a lot of hard work. In particular, the effort has to carefully consider its target audience, just as an advertiser does in selling a product. Although opening the doors of ESA meetings to the public is an admirable thought, I do not think that many people would come, and of those who come few would understand or appreciate most of what they see. To be honest, I felt that way during the first few ESA meetings I attended as an undergraduate and graduate student. It would probably reinforce the perception that ecologists are elitists who speak their own language present barriers to understanding. The simple reason is that ESA meetings are designed for professional ecologists, which is appropriate. I think if ESA were to get serious about public outreach, it would need to have special conferences or workshops designed for that purpose. There may be such efforts of which I am not aware. They would need to be local or regional rather than national so that people could easily attend them, free (supported by external funding sources) with free snacks and coffee, have a theme of interest to some subset of the community, and contain presentations and posters especially designed for that audience to make connections to things that attendees can relate to in their lives and professions. Organizations such as ours (Tall Timbers Research Station), The Longleaf Alliance, etc. do these kinds of workshops and seminars fairly regularly, and they are well attended. The interesting thing about them is we invariably learn as much or more as the attendees by listening to people who live at the interface where our concepts are supposed to be making their impact, whether in a home, a farm, a nearby state forest, etc. To me that is the most important part of Kali's post, that ecologists would be greatly broadened and educated by breaking down the walls. I know I have since leaving the halls of academia and interacting with foresters, hunters, agency managers, etc. in conjunction with our research efforts, and I know my research and writing is better because of it. Kevin Kevin Robertson, PhD Fire Ecologist Tall Timbers Research Station and Land Conservancy 13093 Henry Beadel Drive Tallahassee, FL 32312 krobert...@ttrs.org office: 850-893-4153 ext. 254 mobile: 850-508-5499 -----Original Message----- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 10:57 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Reply to: 'a few thousand ecologists meet... does anybody know or care?' -- A perhaps radical suggestion Ecolog: I hope that the details and the messages between the lines are not lost from Kali's most courageous and intelligent first post. I hope she keeps it up. I also hope that the discussion is not sidetracked from the principles involved to a few (or a few thousand) cases where something simply went wrong. I do hope that greater attention is paid to the issues of deeply-imbedded attitudes that undermine the understanding, by as wide a "public" as possible of what ecology is and is not. While it may be true that "most people" are ignorant of ecology, they are not all, as Kali points out, stupid. In order to convey the impression to those who, like Kali's mother, do absorb truth quickly (or, for that matter, slowly), that ecology is not out to "take jobs away" or other nonsense, but is dedicated to maintaining and improving a better world for all. Calling or implying that "most people" are stupid or even ignorant, intentionally or unintentionally, may not be the best way to convey. Might opening up discussion with folks like Kali's mother might be something of a start? WT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Madhusudan Katti" <mka...@csufresno.edu> To: <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Reply to: 'a few thousand ecologists meet... does anybody know or care?' -- A perhaps radical suggestion > Thank you, Kali, for not keeping your mouth shut! You make some very > important points and I love your suggestion of having more opportunities > for local public to participate for free. A free family ecology day like > the science day they have at AAAS meetings would be a fantastic way to > engage with the public. This particular meeting does have a couple of free > events for the public, but I don't think they've been advertised well > enough to actually draw many members of the public. > > As for media coverage, a local science reporter, JP, who heard about this > meeting via someone's tweet about my blog post, is keen to cover the > meeting - but got a real runaround trying to contact someone for > credentials! JP left several comments describing his/her efforts, and the > rather inadequate media outreach efforts from ESA - I hope Nadine Lymn and > anyone else from among ESA officials read the comments and think about how > to improve communications. Here again is the link to my post where you > will find the comments: > > http://leafwarbler.posterous.com/a-few-thousand-ecologists-meet-in-the-city-to > > We clearly need to do a better job of outreach, and I am glad my post has > generated some discussion about the issue. > > Madhu > > __________________ > Dr. Madhusudan Kat > Associate Professor, Dept of Biology > California State University, Fresno > > On Aug 8, 2011, at 1:58 PM, Kali Bird <yours.is.the.ea...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I have never posted to Ecolog before, but I felt I couldn't keep my mouth >> shut about this one. >> >> First, I don't think we can necessarily know why the news doesn't pick >> up >> on ESA more. Likely, it's because the general public doesn't care, but >> perhaps it may be that they are tired feeling like ecologists tell them >> that >> their lifestyles and values are wrong. Personally, I think it's because >> people don't care. In my experience speaking with the public, I always >> proffer an explanation of what I do immediately after saying that I am a >> 'microbial ecologist,' because most people I speak with don't even know >> what >> ecology is. >> >> Second, if these thousands of ecologists really want to engage the >> public, how about letting the locals come to ESA? I know that >> non-members >> are invited to attend, but honestly, you have to be wealthy or have a >> wealthy grant pay for you to come to be able to pay 500$ and take off >> days >> to a week from work to be involved in the meeting. My mother reads my >> Frontiers magazine religiously. She loves it. She is also part of a >> 'sustainability' group at her international corporation. She lives very >> close to Austin, has the ability to take time off of work, but as a >> middle-class citizen, simply cannot afford it. If these thousands of >> ecologists are really interested in engaging with the public, how about >> creating events at ESA for the locals that are affordable? My mother has >> no >> scientific background, but is smart, learns fast, and loves to learn. >> There >> are a lot of people like this everywhere we have meetings. Yet we preach >> engagement with the public from our over-air-conditioned conference >> rooms, >> doors closed and barred to those we wish to engage with. Phenomenal. >> I know our over-air conditioned convention centers cost a lot of money >> to >> rent and ESA is an expensive venture to host, but surely we can create >> some >> sort of scholarship fund for locals, special free events for public >> engagement (THIS is how you get in the news), or even a lottery for >> one-day >> passes to attend talks. Let's help people understand what in the world >> it >> is we do. If I could have afforded to send my mom to ESA, I would have >> done >> it in a heartbeat. She would have loved it and told all her friends, >> co-workers, and her church group all the things she learned. Do we want >> to >> engage more with people across religious boundaries? In the heart of a >> red >> state, what a boon actually engaging with the religious public would be. >> >> >> >> Kali Bird >> >> Graduate Student >> Kellogg Biological Station, >> Michigan State University
