Even an ecosystem requires cultivation. May be different form of cultivation than what we as humans do in a corn field?
Safeeq On Sep 1, 2013, at 9:33 AM, "Andres Vina" <v...@msu.edu> wrote: > Dear WT, > > How about cultivation of fungi by termites and ants? > > Andres Vina > > > > Wayne Tyson <landr...@cox.net> wrote: > >> A cornfield requires cultivation. An ecosystem requires no cultivation. >> >> WT >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ricardo Rivera >> To: Wayne Tyson >> Cc: ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu >> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 9:41 PM >> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Human-assembled ecosystem >> >> >> Why is novel ecosystem nauseating? There seems to be a negative bias towards >> this idea in this thread. As scientist that we are, this seems a bit out of >> place. For most of the literature on novel ecosystems, there is evidence >> that the new arrangement of species (including many "invasive") can achieve >> equal or similar ecosystem function as those of primary forests. See Lugo, >> Hobbes, Marin-Spiotta and others if interested. I think that the >> "human-assembled ecosystem" term is misleading as even in restoration >> ecology, humans do a pretty poor job in assembling an ecosystem. ' >> >> >> Is it a "human-assembled" ecosystem or is it "just" an assemblage of >> species, each of which is doing what it can, when it can, where it can? >> Ah-HA! This gets us close to the nitty-gritty of what an ecosystem is--AND >> WHY! And perhaps more important, what an ecosystem IS NOT! >> >> >> Exactly, who is to say what an ecosystem is not? Are corn fields an >> ecosystem? Why not? Are the forests in Ascension Island not an ecosystem why >> not? >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Wayne Tyson <landr...@cox.net> wrote: >> >> Some pretty damn good commentary, if a bit challenging to intelligently >> comment upon--mainly due to the scattered nature of the points alluded to. >> >> While I, too, am looking forward to the citations, I would prefer a >> separate healthy discussion on Clements and "invasion biology" from those >> well-versed in both. >> >> "Applied folks" tend to be held in disdain by academics, and "respectable" >> journals usually do not deign to publish "applied" material. This, too, is >> worthy of a separate discussion. >> >> I'd like to hear more about the "huge social component" with respect to >> "invasive" species, and would especially like to hear more about academics' >> discomfort in this regard. (What makes me most "uncomfortable" with the >> whole set of invasive species issues is that they seem to be a mile wide and >> an inch deep--a fertile field, if you'll pardon the punny irony, for >> academicians to dig deeper into. Perhaps then some of the folklore in this >> area of action-with-little-study can be clarified or disposed of. This >> brings us back to one of the several reasons Ascension Island might be >> instructive. Is it a "human-assembled" ecosystem or is it "just" an >> assemblage of species, each of which is doing what it can, when it can, >> where it can? Ah-HA! This gets us close to the nitty-gritty of what an >> ecosystem is--AND WHY! And perhaps more important, what an ecosystem IS NOT! >> >> While the concept of "novel ecosystems" does nauseate me, I'm open to >> being converted--and then falling from grace, as it were, perhaps yo-yo >> like, until the end of my days. What I think of it now already seems like >> "blithering stupidity" to me, but I'm interested in cogent arguments to the >> contrary. >> >> Ecological history has always fascinated me, and I hope someone will bring >> it all into focus soon! There was an interesting film treatment on (the >> History Channel?) what would happen after humans died out fairly recently, >> and while it was a good start, it seemed high on sensation and a bit lacking >> on references (well, what can we expect from show-biz?). Let's take this a >> bit further into the nuts and bolts of evolution. >> >> WT >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Duffy" <ddu...@hawaii.edu> >> To: <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> >> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 1:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Human-assembled ecosystem >> >> >> >> Hi Ian, >> >> >> "While plant ecology abandoned Clements a generation or two ago, like a >> lot >> of things that hasn't always trickled down to more applied areas." >> >> >> Just out of curiosity, can you cite a few references where Clements in >> still used in invasion biology, specifically in "more applied areas"? >> >> I admit it is annoying but applied folks tend not to publish and when >> they >> do, it is often in gray literature. Many academic biologists thus may >> have >> a relatively uninformed, Rumsfeldian knowledge of what happens on the >> ground. In addition, management of invasive species has a huge social >> component. Relatively few academics are familiar, much less comfortable, >> with this aspect. Finally there is the problem when protecting rare >> 'primary' forest that ivory tower academics serve albeit unwittingly as >> effective apologists for the destruction of the same. What does it matter >> if the forest goes? Super tramp species can often "provide the same >> services" and look forest. My best examples are all those novel forestry >> projects China has tried, like the Green Wall in its grasslands or the >> evergreen forests in heavy snow belts. >> >> It is sort of like regional cooking versus Western fast food. Macdonalds >> and Kentucky Fried Chicken can arguably provide nutrition and definitely >> taste great, but these invasive aliens threaten regional foods and >> indirectly local cultures. We can live in a world of Big Macs and fries, >> or >> we can sample baozi, feijoada, yak yogurt, gallo pinto, pachamanca/hangi, >> or callalo, although, personally having tried them, I will not much >> mourn >> the passing of muktuk, haggis, Vegemite, and guinea pig. >> >> Finally there is the arrogance of the present. Much of conservation >> biology >> is ultimately about preserving options for our children and their >> children's children. Our knowledge about "novel ecosystems" is basically >> recent and primitive, as is our knowledge of invasion biology. What seems >> like a good idea involving "novel ecosystems" may be seen as blithering >> stupidity a century from now, as new crop pests continue to arrive (elm, >> chestnut etc, etc), local diseases turn epidemic (SARS), fires rearrange >> the suburbs, and watersheds dry up. Not that the US lacks for its share. >> >> There is a marvelous field called ecological history. Cronon, Crosby, >> Pyne, >> McEvoy (to mention a few of my favorites) cover invasive species as part >> of a bigger picture which appears to be too often lacking in contemporary >> ecology. They are worth reading. Cows, grass, bees, Europeans were all >> invasive taxa that have now become part of the American landscape, >> dominants in "novel ecosystems". Had one asked the Sioux or Nez Perce in >> 1877 or 1890 whether cows or Europeans were invasive, well history speaks >> for itself. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> David Duffy >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Ian Ramjohn <iramj...@outlook.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> While plant ecology abandoned Clements a generation or two ago, like a >> lot >> of things that hasn't always trickled down to more applied areas. >> >> For this stuff specifically, there's a whole literature on 'novel >> ecosystems' that has developed in the last several years...Richard >> Hobbs, >> Ariel Lugo, Timothy Seasted, etc. Plenty by Lugo et al. on tropical >> forest >> systems. >> >> On Aug 29, 2013, at 6:49 PM, "David Duffy" <ddu...@hawaii.edu> wrote: >> >>> I'd suggest that before folks get too excited about challenges to "our >>> ideas regarding community assembly", they reread Gleason (1926), >> Whittaker >>> (1975) and Hubbell (2001), amongst others. Also isolated islands with >>> depauperate faunas and floras may not be the best models for general >>> ecological theory, although they have done pretty well for evolution. >>> >>> David Duffy >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:01 AM, Richard Boyce <boy...@nku.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Here's a *very* interesting story on the human-assembled ecosystems of >>>> Ascension Island in the tropical South Atlantic: >> >> http://e360.yale.edu/feature/on_a_remote_island_lessons__in_how_ecosystems_function/2683/ >>>> >>>> I suspect that further research here may challenge our ideas regarding >>>> community assembly. >>>> >>>> ================================ >>>> Richard L. Boyce, Ph.D. >>>> Director, Environmental Science Program >>>> Professor >>>> Department of Biological Sciences, SC 150 >>>> Northern Kentucky University >>>> Nunn Drive >>>> Highland Heights, KY 41099 USA >>>> >>>> 859-572-1407 (tel.) >>>> 859-572-5639 (fax) >>>> boy...@nku.edu<mailto:boy...@nku.edu> >>>> http://www.nku.edu/~boycer/ >>>> ================================= >>>> >>>> "One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly >>>> making exciting discoveries." - A.A. Milne >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit >>> Botany >>> University of Hawaii >>> 3190 Maile Way >>> Honolulu Hawaii 96822 USA >>> 1-808-956-8218 >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit >> Botany >> University of Hawaii >> 3190 Maile Way >> Honolulu Hawaii 96822 USA >> 1-808-956-8218 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ricardo J. Rivera
