On 27 Apr 2004 10:38:41 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Herman Rubin) wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Brett Magill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip, quite a few lines about schools] HR > > This was not the case among several immigrant groups. This > was not the case for me. BTW, the SCHOOLS performed poorly > for me, as essentially all I got out of them was the presentation > of the topics, and then I learned on my own. There was opposition > to the progress I was allowed in elementary school. > So, some of the public schools were bad 50-to-60 years ago. My schools had a pretty good local reputation, and I feel that they were bad, objectively speaking, compared to stated ideals, 40-to-50 years ago. > ................ BM (I think)> > >Further, will vouchers automagically solve the teacher standards problem > >that you point out? No, of course not. This is not an issue for the > >schools. Instead, this is a problem for the system of higher education > >that certifies teachers. HR > > This is a vicious cycle. The non-public schools would be free > to ignore the present certification system, and to hire only > those who understood their subjects. It would take a few years > for it to become apparent that their students learned much more. > It will take decades for an adequate number of competent teachers > to be produced, as having gone through the present public schools > is already an impediment. It IS that bad. This assumes that it would be good to ignore the certification system, which, I think, assumes that the schools are not doing a good job. I can readily grant that they are not doing an *ideal* job, even yet. Because of so many factors, including TV, games, suburbanization, and de-feminization of the teaching pool (There were smarter people becoming teachers, when women had no other decent job choices), I could easily understand and partly explain away the effect, if schools were doing worse and worse, over the last decades. Instead, by the somewhat-objective standards of tests and parents' opinions, schools are doing well. A great number of parents are pleased with their public schools. More students stay in school, more graduate, more go on to college, than ever before. Despite larger test pools, Achievement tests have to be re-normed regularly in order to properly represent the median achievement at grade levels, since that achievement keeps creeping up. Now, I have not been totally happy with what I have seen of el-hi achievement questions, but I don't think the gain can be blamed on irrelevant factors. Against that, there is the complaint in numerous anecdotes that students are not prepared for college; and consequently, college courses must be watered down. But I don't think I have seen a lot of documentation of that 'watering down' part. - One aspect that gained attention a decade ago was that students could not write decently; and now that is being added to tests. I read a nice news feature by someone who got trained to *score* standardized essay exam, and I was impressed by the fact that the author made it seem doable and sensible. -- Rich Ulrich, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pitt.edu/~wpilib/index.html . . ================================================================= Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at: . http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ . =================================================================
