On Aug 27, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Michael Allan wrote:
But not for voting. The voting system guarantees that my vote
will have no effect and I would look rather foolish to suppose
otherwise. This presents a serious problem. Do you agree?
Dave Ketchum wrote:
TRULY, this demonstrates lack of understanding of cause and effect.
IF the flask capacity is 32 oz then pouring in 1 oz will:
. Do nothing above filling if the flask starts with less than 31 oz.
. Cause overflow if flask already full.
In voting there is often a limit at which time one more would have
an effect. If the act were pouring sodas into the Atlantic the
limit would be far away.
Please relate this to an election. Take an election for a US state
governor, for example. Suppose I am eligible to vote. I say my vote
cannot possibly affect the outcome of the election. You say it can,
under certain conditions. Under what conditions exactly?
Conditions surrounding elections vary but, picking on a simple
example, suppose that, without your vote, there are exactly nR and nD
votes. If that is the total vote you get to decide the election by
creating a majority with your vote.
Or, suppose a count of nPoor, 1Fair, and nGood and thus Fair being the
median before you and a twin vote.
If such twins vote Poor, that and total count go up by 2, median goes
up by 1 and is now Poor.
If such twins vote Good, that and total count go up by 2, median goes
up by 1 and is now Good.
Note that single voters get no useful power in an election for
governor, but a majority voting together do have the power (by
combining their votes) to decide the election.
Dave Ketchum
Note my critique of Warren's proof in the other sub-thread:
http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2011-August/028266.html
--
Michael Allan
Toronto, +1 416-699-9528
http://zelea.com/
Dave Ketchum wrote:
A SAD weakness about what is being said.
On Aug 24, 2011, at 12:55 PM, Fred Gohlke wrote:
Michael Allan wrote:
"But not for voting. The voting system guarantees that my vote
will have no effect and I would look rather foolish to suppose
otherwise. This presents a serious problem. Do you agree?"
TRULY, this demonstrates lack of understanding of cause and effect.
IF the flask capacity is 32 oz then pouring in 1 oz will:
. Do nothing above filling if the flask starts with less than
31 oz.
. Cause overflow if flask already full.
In voting there is often a limit at which time one more would have an
effect. If the act were pouring sodas into the Atlantic the limit
would be far away.
To which Warren Smith responded:
"--no. A single ballot can change the outcome of an election.
This is true in any election method which is capable of having
at least two outcomes."
Proof: simply change ballots one by one until the outcome
changes. At the moment it changes, that single ballot
changed an election outcome. QED.
BUT there could be many previous ballots of which none made any
change.
Since, as stated, "A single ballot can change the outcome of an
election." and "This is true in any election method which is capable
of having at least two outcomes.", why would a voter prefer a new
electoral method over the existing plurality method?
From the voter's perspective, (s)he is already familiar with
plurality, so , if the new method produces the same result, why
change?
Truly no reason PROVIDED the new method provides the same result,
given the same input.
Cui bono? Obviously, not the voter.
When considering the 'meaning' of a vote, it is more important to
examine the question of what the voter is voting for or against.
Voting, of the type used in plurality contests, is profoundly
undemocratic, not because of the vote-counting method, but because
the people can only vote for or against candidates and issues chosen
by those who control the political parties - the people Robert
Michels' described as oligarchs.
If the object of changing the electoral method is to build a more
just and democratic government, the proposed methods must give the
people a way to influence the choice of candidates and the issues on
which they vote.
Fred Gohlke
----
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