Well, 61000-4-5 does specify testing at both 0 and 180 degrees. That said, the
only difference I can see between the two conditions is that at zero, the line
voltage is increasing and at 180, it’s decreasing…. 

 

When the document was re-issued, there was considerable discussion about the
length of the test, so words were added to allow testing at rates faster than
one surge/minute. Removing some tests was discussed, but for every test to be
removed, someone had a good reason for keeping it in……

 

Best  Regards,

 

 

Michael Hopkins

Amber Precision Instruments

Office: +1 603 595 6420

Mobile: +1 603 765 3736

m...@amberpi.com

 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:06 PM
To: Mike Hopkins; Derek Walton; IEEE EMC Discussion Group
Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions

 

Our tester won't do Line and Neutral to Ground so we couldn't test that
condition even if we waned to.

 

In Europe, it is common to have 230VAC with a grounded neutral, so to properly
perform the Surge Test you have to test both Line to Ground and Neutral to
Ground.  Some labs even test worst case and perform the Surge test at 264VAC. 

 

With a grounded Neutral, 0º and 180º is not the zero crossing point (zero
voltage potential to earth ground) but the 270º angle. Worst case would be
the 90º angle which would be Peak-Peak plus the Positive Surge pulse. 

 

If you are not using a grounded Neutral or center-tap power system,  the true
zero crossing can float around so you have to test both line to ground and
neutral to ground to make sure you are testing the worst case voltage
potential.

 

I would think that the 0º angle point and the 180º angle point would be
exactly the same so I do not think you have to do both.  If someone disagrees,
please let me know and why.

 

Testing both the 0º and 180º angles during a 2KV test will turn a 4 hour
test into a 5 ½ hour test which is more money for the test lab to “follow
the standard”.  

 

The Other Brian

 

 

 


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:51 PM
To: 'Derek Walton'; 'IEEE EMC Discussion Group'
Subject: RE: Surge testing Questions

 

I believe the intention has always been to test line-to-ground (normal mode)

and then neutral-ground (common mode). It's been a few years since I was

convenor of that group and don't recall all the discussions. I believe

coupling multiple lines may have been discussed, but there are real problems

producing the proper waveforms for all conditions == especially for 3-phase

systems where multiple lines can be involved in a common mode test. Of

course, a product standard could require the line + neutral to ground tests,

but I'm not aware of any that do. If they did, I wouldn't guarantee the

waveforms to be correct from all generators under this condition. I believe

that the single line to ground common mode test has been around since the

old 801-5. 

 

In the US, ANSI/IEEE and many companies take the position that the transient

can come in any way it wants to, so line + neutral to ground is commonly

(excuse the PUN) done.

 

In section 8 of Edition 2 it's stated that for a.c. power ports five

positive and five negative pulses each at 0º, 90º, 180º and at 270º shall
be

done....  So I'd say 180 IS a test as is 0 degrees...

 

 

Note 2 of that section also states that, "Product committees may select

different phase angles and either increase or reduce the number of surges

per phase..."

 

 

Hope this is helpful....

 

 

Michael Hopkins

Amber Precision Instruments

Office: +1 603 595 6420

Mobile: +1 603 765 3736

m...@amberpi.com

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton

Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:22 AM

To: IEEE EMC Discussion Group

Subject: Surge testing Questions

 

Good day folks,

 

I have a question or two concerning the latest surge test document 

EN61000-4-5:

 

1) when the pulse is applied on a power lead between line and ground, is 

it done Line to ground, then Neutral to Ground OR, is it Line and 

Neutral to Ground.

 

One would think if this were a common mode test ( since it's referenced 

to Ground ) that the pulse be applied Line and Neutral to ground 

simultaneously. However, the wording in -5 clause 8.2 states 

*successively *implying Line to ground then Neutral to ground. This 

implies separate tests.

 

2) On an AC waveform, is the 180 degree position a test condition? I ask 

because it states Zero crossing point. If this is NOT.... where is the 

exemption?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Derek Walton

L F Research

 

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