The cause of this confusion is that we are used to declare conformity with a directive,
where IMHO one should declare conformity with the implementation thereof in law in a member state. Gert Gremmen ce-test Van: Charlie Blackham [mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com] Verzonden: woensdag 29 oktober 2014 21:01 Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe Tony Some definitive statement regarding implementation of Directives” is at http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/directives/directives_en.htm What is a directive? EU directives lay down certain end results that must be achieved in every Member State. National authorities have to adapt their laws to meet these goals, but are free to decide how to do so. Directives may concern one or more EU countries, or all of them. Each directive specifies the date by which the national laws must be adapted - giving national authorities the room for manoeuvre within the deadlines necessary to take account of differing national situations. Directives are used to bring different national laws into line with each other, and are particularly common in matters that affect the operation of the single market (e.g. product safety standards). What are "national implementing measures"? These are texts officially adopted by the authorities in a Member State to incorporate the provisions in a directive into national law. All such texts sent to us by national authorities are scrutinised to ensure that they will actually implement in that Member State all the measures required in the directive Also, https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/229763/bis-13-775-transposition-guidance-how-to-implement-european-directives-effectively-revised.pdf Unlike Directives, EU “regulations” are law from moment they are published and do not need implementation. I don’t have a definitive reference for the “minimum one member state” comment, but it was in a new EMC Directive presentation given by UK government BIS department to IEEE meeting March. Regards Charlie From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com] Sent: 29 October 2014 15:00 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe Hi Charlie, Thanks for your assistance, but I still can't see anything preventing one claiming compliance to the RED. It's an EU directive which does appear to be currently 'in force' across Europe, though not yet 'enforceable' by law. So why can't you claim compliance to the RED (assuming you do)? To coin a phrase... "there's no law against it". Or is there? See my ongoing questions below. Regards, Tony Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 at 12:59 PM From: "Charlie Blackham" <char...@sulisconsultants.com> To: "Anthony Thomson" <ton...@europe.com>, "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: RE: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe Tony Article 48 says that the existing legislation (R&TTE or EMC+LVD) may be used for equipment within scope of RED until 13 June 2017, provided it was on the market before 16 June 2016. T: Yes, I can see that Article 48 permits optionally applying the R&TTED (et. al.), to new products, for 1 year after the RED becomes enforceable under law on 13 June 2016. However, I can't see how this sets the earliest date that compliance against the RED can be claimed, and this is what I'm trying to get to. Article 49 says that RED shall be applied from 13 June 2016 (in other words, it is won’t be applicable until then). T: Does Article 49 say the RED applies from 13 June 2016? To me, it tells Member States to have everything in place to comply with the directive by 12 June 2016 and start enforcement on 13 June 2016. It does not prevent companies complying before that date, does it? I'd have thought that companies are at liberty to comply with requirements before thay becomes legally mandatory and enforceable. T: Article 51 says the RED "enters into force" 20 days after publication in the OJ which equates to 11 June 2014. So the RED is currently "in force". Sadly there is no definitions of "in force or "into force" within the directive, so common definitions needs to apply. So from Article 51, isn't the RED already 'in force', though not yet enforceable under law?. T: So I can see that under Article 49 that there cannot be any laws in place to enforce the RED's application until 13 June 2016. Surely however you can claim conformance before then, you just cant be penalised for not doing so (considering the limitation of enforcement of Article 48). However . . . . It’s “only” a Directives. Directives have to be implemented into National Law, in at least one member state, before they can be used – that’s the part that currently stops you. T: Isn't that what stops Member States enforcing a Directive? Surely companies can still optionally conform to it, after all the RED seems to have been in force since 11 June 2014 (albeit not enforceable until 13 June 2016 or 13 June 2017 if you chose to apply the R&TTED). T: Where does this thing about "at least one member state" come from? I'd like a black and white reference for this. It seems to be something lots of people say without any solid foundation. How can an EU directive be legally enforceable in one EU country and not another? Isn't it 'all or nothing' (hence the 13 June 2016 date in the RED). RED is not a simple NLF alignment like 2014/30/EU and 2014/35/EU because there is also a change of scope and a number of items are moving into RED from EMC/LVD and out of R&TTE into EMC/LVD. There are commission workshops on RED and EMCD planned for November, and issues around transition are on the agenda. Regards Charlie From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com] Sent: 29 October 2014 12:34 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe All, I'm completely confused by this situation and some clarity really would be appreciated. Where in the directive does it say you that can't currently claim compliance to the RED (well, as of 11 June 2015 - see below). I've heard Amund's comments below from other sources too, but I cannot find any basis for this in the directive. Articles 48 through 50 mentioned by Nick merely state: 1. That the authorities cannot "impede" goods based on the RED until 13 June 2016 (Article 48). 2. That EU countries RED enforcement laws shall be in place before, and applied from 13 June 2016 (Article 49). 3. The R&TTED is repealed on 13 June 2016. None say you can't claim compliance to the RED. Now... Article 51 states that the RED shall enter into force on the 20th day following its publication in the OJ. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the RED was published in the the OJ on 22 May 2014 and has therefore been in force from the 11 June 2015. So if it's in force, providing you meet the provisions of the RED, which article(s) prevents claiming conformity? After all, it is (interpretation, which may well be wrong) in force? I admit that I haven't scrutinised the whole document and all its references, so I presume that I have missed some key facts. The benefit of greater experience really would be appreciated. Tony Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 at 8:08 AM From: "Hooper, Nick" <nick.hoo...@ul.com> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe Hi Articles 48 to 50 will also be implemented as part of the National Law, hence enforcing the dates below Best regards Nick From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: 29 October 2014 07:52 To: Hooper, Nick; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: SV: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe RED applies from when the first EU/EEA member state has implemented the directive into national law? #Amund Fra: Hooper, Nick [mailto:nick.hoo...@ul.com] Sendt: 28. oktober 2014 12:04 Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Emne: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe Hello everyone. I have been in discussion with the EU Commission and ADCO chairman as there seems to be an amount of misunderstanding on when you can declare compliance to the RED. I explained to Lucio that we have seen a few cases of DoC and NB opinions to the new RED, and therefore had a question on the validity of these documents. Below is the response received from the ADCO R&TTE Chairman. “Dear Nick We have already had such problems and administrative non compliances J The new Directive (RED) is currently not applicable (will be applicable to products first placed on market as of 13 June 2016). Hence the manufacturers cannot use, right now (i.e. for products placed on market before 13 June 2016), the references of RED (new Directive). Best regards Lucio Lucio Cocciantelli ADCO R&TTE Chairman” Please ensure you read Artcile 48 to 50 of the RED, and pass this information on asap. Notified Bodies should not be issuing Opinions to the RED until they are listed, on the yet to be published, NANDO database for RED Notified Bodies. As the accreditation assessments will be taking place over the next year, it is unlikely the RED NANDO list will be published until late 2015 / early 2016 Nick Hooper BSc(Eng) CEng MIET Chairman R&TTE CA ---------------------------------------------------- UL Grove House Business Centre, Chineham Court, Lutyens, Basingstoke, Hampshire, RG24 8AG, England This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient: (1) you may not disclose, use, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment(s); and (2) please notify the sender by reply e-mail, and then delete this message and its attachment(s). Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates disclaim all liability for any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in this message or any attachments. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <emcp...@radiusnorth.net> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient: (1) you may not disclose, use, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment(s); and (2) please notify the sender by reply e-mail, and then delete this message and its attachment(s). Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates disclaim all liability for any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in this message or any attachments. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
