Hello Scott, UL 723 requirements are far more strict than a UL 94 5VA rating. The UL 94 5VA test uses a single high-energy flame applied to a sheet sample of the plastic. The test determines how the material burns. 5VB and 5VA are the same test except that 5VB allows the flame to burn a hole through the material and 5VA does not. Both have strict prohibitions against dripping flaming particles and the material must self-extinguish quickly.
UL 723 has a large burner at one end of the tunnel and forces the flame along the length of a large sample. The UL 723 test simulates how materials would behave in a moderately large structure fire. It determines whether the materials would help the spread of the fire and whether the materials would generate enough smoke to cause problems for occupants of the building. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 11:03 PM To: Ted Eckert <ted.eck...@microsoft.com> Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: Re: [PSES] Metal back of US fridge - Grenfell Tower Fire Hi Ted, Very appreciate your useful information! It tells me why I could not find it in the product specific safety requirement in UL 250 & UL 60335-2-14. According to testing laboratories, they claim the plastic back, HIPS is allowed but must meet fire retardant UL-94 5VA rating, otherwise metal back is a must. Is it equivalent characteristics of ASTM E84 and UL 723? Regards, Scott On 26 June 2017 at 04:59, Ted Eckert <000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>> wrote: The United States has significant national differences. Many U.S. national standards have very strict flammability requirement for larger areas of materials used indoors. The basic requirement applies when you have a piece of material longer than 6 feet (2 meters) or greater than 10 square feet (1 square meter) in area. This material must pass the Steiner Fire Tunnel test, covered in ASTM E84 and UL 723. This video gives a basic outline of the test<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Ftime_continue%3D1%26v%3DiEe5dQ7LPhM&data=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40microsoft.com%7C9505044e827341c9898508d4bc58f46d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636340537621918986&sdata=XKXuwtGektgHn4HzOzgf46vprAIC9UX%2BuOeGbHmynQ4%3D&reserved=0>. Interior building surfaces must meet fairly strict requirements and this would include a large sheet of plastic on the back of a refrigerator. There are even stricter requirements for materials used in air plenums, such as above a suspended ceiling. The linked video references the “International Building Code”, or the IBC. The same requirements are in the Uniform Building Code, or UBC. Most municipalities in the United States adopt either the IBC or UBC. Here is a sample UL Listing for a material commonly used for kitchen countertops<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdatabase.ul.com%2Fcgi-bin%2FXYV%2Ftemplate%2FLISEXT%2F1FRAME%2Fshowpage.html%3Fname%3DBTAT.R11986%26ccnshorttitle%3DMolded%2BPlastic%26objid%3D1074291935%26cfgid%3D1073741824%26version%3Dversionless%26parent_id%3D1073984739%26sequence%3D1&data=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40microsoft.com%7C9505044e827341c9898508d4bc58f46d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636340537621918986&sdata=IZTAcCl8jyrXSmxB4mRFkEy225Q%2BNQ3q7As4P870ExY%3D&reserved=0>. Similar requirements apply to drywall, flooring materials, plastic glazing materials, ceiling tiles and other construction products. Many U.S. national standards do not specifically call out this requirement, largely because few products that fall under those standards have enough surface area. For example, I had a large piece of computer equipment certified to UL 60950-1. UL applied the UL 723 requirements to the plastics used for large air plenums on the structure. It was probably one of the few pieces of ITE equipment I’ve ever seen with pieces of plastic large enough to warrant UL 723 testing. The back of a refrigerator would be close to the limits where a U.S. Nationally Recognized Test Laboratory (NRTL) might apply UL 723. The refrigerator manufacturer could come up with ways of reducing the panel size below the limit to avoid this challenging test. The Steiner Tunnel Test is also used for wiring that could be hidden in walls or air plenums, such as above a suspended ceiling. There is another U.S. national difference that affects wires over 10 feet (3.05 meters) in length. This is in UL 60950-1 and UL 62368-1. If your computer’s external cable is less than 3.05 m, it only needs to be VW-1, FT-1 or better. If the cable is longer, there is a concern that it could carry flame from where the computer is located to another occupied space. Finding an Ethernet cable that meets this requirement, often called plenum rated, is easy. Finding a USB cable that meets the requirement is hard. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, any NRTL or the code authorities behind the IBC and UBC. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com<mailto:scott...@gmail.com>] Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:01 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Metal back of US fridge - Grenfell Tower Fire Adam, It is a good statistics! Actually US now also adopts UL EN 60335-2-24 as their safety standard. Does UL have deviation for US in this standard as suggested by John? Thanks and regards, Scott From: Adam Dixon <lanterna.viri...@gmail.com<mailto:lanterna.viri...@gmail.com>> Reply-To: Adam Dixon <lanterna.viri...@gmail.com<mailto:lanterna.viri...@gmail.com>> Date: Sunday, 25 June 2017 at 7:52 PM To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Metal back of US fridge - Grenfell Tower Fire Here's another good UK data source for incidents, not recalls: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/fire-statistics-data-tables<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fstatistical-data-sets%2Ffire-statistics-data-tables&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165781837&sdata=FwqZC6%2BVF27OkRORXGTemSPoSXe5YpSxkdHu9FarxkU%3D&reserved=0> The "Domestic appliance fires dataset" file near the bottom can be parsed by appliance type. Cheers, Adam adam.di...@ieee.org<mailto:adam.di...@ieee.org> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:42 AM, John Allen <000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>> wrote: Scott Look on the EU Commission RAPEX site: http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumers_safety/safety_products/rapex/alerts/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fec.europa.eu%2Fconsumers%2Fconsumers_safety%2Fsafety_products%2Frapex%2Falerts%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=B%2BpZYmERccXhKqUrO3Y9ZaRzTspq9nj7Y6xqrhJ9mJs%3D&reserved=0> Actually, don’t if you want to sleep tonight! John E Allen W.London, UK From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com<mailto:scott...@gmail.com>] Sent: 25 June 2017 12:34 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Metal back of US fridge - Grenfell Tower Fire Hi Adam, The info supplied is interesting! Yes, it aligns with John’s thought. However, the recalled units are quite different – 5,200 vs 1.2 m. In the UK, there are a few million recalls of clothes dryers in last few years – that is quite different from US data. Is there similar data of UK and/or EU? Cheers, Scott From: Adam Dixon <lanterna.viri...@gmail.com<mailto:lanterna.viri...@gmail.com>> Date: Sunday, 25 June 2017 at 7:06 PM To: Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com<mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>, <jmw1...@btinternet.com<mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>> Cc: <EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Metal back of US fridge - Grenfell Tower Fire Here's a slightly dated but popular US magazine article with a table near the end that supports John's closing thought about rarity of fridge fires compared to tumble-dryer fires (1:9 ratio). http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/03/appliance-fires-is-your-home-safe/index.htm<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.consumerreports.org%2Fcro%2Fmagazine%2F2012%2F03%2Fappliance-fires-is-your-home-safe%2Findex.htm&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=aEnwHYkLu9GrByivxXoHMtluDF3ExAoDloWIrPrhtT0%3D&reserved=0> Cheers, Adam adam.di...@ieee.org<mailto:adam.di...@ieee.org> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 6:52 AM, Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com<mailto:scott...@gmail.com>> wrote: John, thanks for background info! LFB said one fire every day in London is caused by white goods. It is a horrible figure! Grenfell Tower Fire is a bit different from previous ones and had another risk of non-approved insulation and cladding tiles on the outer wall of building. It is still unclear how the fire spreads from the fridge to the cladding titles. Was the fridge close to the windows? From the video, the metal back seems to work delaying the fire spread. It may trigger the standard body to think it again. The capacitor incident prevention has been incorporated into the safety standard, why not this one? LFB may take this case to reinforce their warning alert in 2015. Scott On 25/6/2017, 5:25 PM, "John Woodgate" <jmw1...@btinternet.com<mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>> wrote: It's not quite 'resistance', it's more a matter of different priorities. US safety standards major on protection against fire because they were originated by the insurance industry (Underwriters Laboratory) for obvious financial reasons, while European safety standards major on prevention of electric shock, because 230 V is more dangerous than 120 V (but of course not more dangerous than 240 V!), and timber-framed buildings are relatively rare in Europe. I guess that the applicable safety standard (IEC/EN 60335-2-xxx) isn't strongly influenced by US experts (US may even have voted for it) and thus doesn’t require a metal back panel, whereas the UL standard (which may be the IEC standard with a modification or several) does require one. All the Sections of IEC 60335-2 are under continuous review as technologies change, and the recent incidence of fires may well result in significant changes. However, unlike the tumble dryer case, where numerous fires were reported, this fridge-freezer fire is just one incident, and may be due to a 'one-off' fault' or obstruction of the ventilation. Even the enquiry that is being held may not be able to assign a definite cause. I suspect that fridge fires are very much rarer than tumble-dryer fires, even if, to be fair, the epidemic dryer fires are excluded. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jmwa.demon.co.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=ewI3pMv%2B%2FSyeNkkneh8bgtWX9oIKUIFhhvmVkXHD3hs%3D&reserved=0> J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Xe [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:scott.xe@G-%3cBR%3e----------------------------------------------------------------%3cBR%3e%3cp%3eThis%20message%20is%20from%20the%20IEEE%20Product%20Safety%20Engineering%20Society%20emc-pstc%20discussion%20list.%20To%20post%20a%20message%20to%20the%20list,%20send%20your%20e-mail%20to%20%3c%3cA%20HREF=>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=l1RnVJPaZ6DrDl8Sre2WZZHPWJ8bntqXq6SyKancp5k%3D&reserved=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=euJOUZgEen4mFMgZVsDDNGMyjeHtbPB0NszZObsL8Ls%3D&reserved=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=7OJQKHvMsmpDz2nii0JICMCFmQ5Mw5TJuekMdXrg6bk%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=Oh0VetogpAIPGPGSFZZq19mOJoWM0vh1EqUOel56%2B4I%3D&reserved=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C17744cf20f834e2c7cfd08d4bbd2bc15%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636339961165791839&sdata=ebZpPH8QshSN1PJtrWBf83RxlRCXUx1lSYqSQzJ2N%2Fw%3D&reserved=0> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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