Ted
Thanks for correcting me on breaker characteristics - I was also thinking afterwards that the issues are also related to variations in trip time/current characteristics. An, the NEC (and I assume the CEC is similar) rules on power strips seem just "weird" to me! J From: Ted Eckert [mailto:000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: 15 September 2017 14:35 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details The rating on a North American circuit breaker is not its trip current. It is the rated current. UL 489 requires circuit breakers to hold at their rated current. In fact, at normal room temperatures, UL 489 Listed circuit breaker should hold at 110% of its rated current. The calibrations are done at 135% and 200% of the rated current. Because the circuit breakers are packed together in a panel, there is heating from adjacent breakers. It is assumed that a breaker is typically operating at an elevated temperature. The breakers typically have both magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms and there is some compensation for the heating in the breaker panel. A UL 489 Listed breaker used in isolation would actually hold at 135% of its rated load for a surprisingly long time. The trip curve for a North American breaker may be different from that of a European breaker. However, I think it is misleading to say that a North American breaker or fuse will trip at a lower current. Let me return to Pete Perkin's original query. North American power strips Listed to UL 1363 are considered temporary relocatable power taps. They are allowed to be listed for the full current of their plug. A power strip with a 15 A plug can be rated 15 A and does not need to be derated to 12 A. They must be "relocatable" and are not allowed to be permanently affixed to structure. A permanently affixed power strip, such as one used in a rack in a datacenter, can't be listed to UL 1363. A datacenter power strip will typically be UL 60950-1 or UL 62368-1 Listed and will be rated 12 A. NFPA 70, the U.S. National Electrical Code, only allows the continuous load to be 80% of the rating of the circuit. However, "continuous" is defined as 3 hours or more. A temporary load can be rated for the full current of the circuit. Thus a hairdryer with a 15 A plug is allowed to pull 15 A, 1800 W. The assumption is that the hairdryer will not be used for more than 3 hours continuously. Because a UL 1363 Listed power strip is considered a temporary power tap, it is considered an extension of the branch circuit and carries the branch circuit's rating. A datacenter power strip is a load device and is fixed in place. That makes it a permanent load. It is known to be used for more than 3 hours and thus is rated for 80% of the branch rating. (Don't complain to me about these rules. I didn't make them up.) In the U.S., a UL 1363 "power strip" can only be provided with blind keyhole slots or spring clips. It isn't permitted to have holes allowing it to be screwed or bolted in place. To cause further confusion, there are also two types of circuit breakers. UL 489 Listed Molded Case Circuit Breakers are "branch breakers". UL 1363 Listed power strips with more than three outlets must have a "Supplementary Overcurrent Protector" which will be UL 1077 Recognized. The UL 1077 overcurrent protector is purely a thermal device and is intended to protect from low overloads that a magnetic UL 489 breaker may allow. Long ago, you could occasionally find UL 1363 Recognized power strips for rack mounting. They carried the full rating of the plug but could be mounted into an equipment rack. They were Recognized instead of Listed. One of the Conditions of Use was that they could only be used in racks on wheels, thereby making them relocatable, maintaining their status as a temporary power tap. This was a convoluted method of allowing rack mounted power strips, and it was used only as a stopgap measure until testing to UL 60950-1 became common for rack mounted power distribution. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: John Allen [mailto:000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details 16A/250V is the normal running current/voltage rating of general purpose Schuko sockets and plugs in Europe (and sometimes elsewhere). One of the main reasons for the differences in allowable currents from mains outlets (and thus from connected power strips) is the differences in the characteristics of the protective breakers and fuses between those used in Europe and those used in N.America. General purpose European /IEC breakers/fuses are rated for continuous running at the marked rating, whereas on the equivalent N.American breakers/fuses the marked rating is the trip/blow-current rating - thus (all other things being "equal") the protective device for a circuit protected by one of the latter will trip/blow at a lower current than one protected by a European/IEC device. This essential difference can and does (encountered it many time L) cause considerable issues and confusion for designers when specifying the protective devices for equipment which is to be used in both N.America and Europe (and obviously elsewhere) - then, of course, there is the related issue that the relevant national certifications for such protective devices are not (with the exception of a very few devices certified on both continents) recognized on the "opposite" sides of "The Pond". John Allen W. London, UK From: Don Gies [mailto:ddg...@verizon.net] Sent: 15 September 2017 13:16 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details Pete, Before last year's TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German Schucko European Power Strip from Amazon. It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 USB outputs. Its ratings are: "Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~ " Don Gies <mailto:ddg...@verizon.net> ddg...@verizon.net (732) 207-7828 From: John Allen [mailto:000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A outlet can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the "diversity factor" principle is applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A outlets will be actually be fully loaded at the same time! Murphy's Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could simultaneously be loaded at 13A - and so it is to be hoped that the wall outlet in question is on a UK "ring main" circuit protected by a 32A breaker, and not a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker! For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a (generally, as John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max cumulative continuous load for the sockets in the strip is also 13A - unless, of course, the mfr has decided to give it an overall lower current rating, fitted a lower-rated fuse AND marked the plug with that rating. BTW: I have also occasionally seen 7A fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, but, AFAIK, that only shows a few "standard" ratings, and not some of those which are actually sold - such as those listed here http://cpc.farnell.com/search?st=plug%20top%20fuse <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcpc.farnell .com%2Fsearch%3Fst%3Dplug%2520top%2520fuse&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40micro soft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db 47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata=wPYM7w6jiCCzu%2FcAE9o6b0piDWF7bM%2BNFI XPzHd%2BwGw%3D&reserved=0> ) I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS 5733:2010+A1:2014 "General requirements for electrical accessories. Specification" - but don't have a copy and so can't comment in detail on what it requires. John Allen W.London, UK From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A fuse, but they are very rare. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jmwa.de mon.co.uk%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb 308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63641076932056564 2&sdata=eSgY3nPhG3OyYNCNTK69%2Ffwpdj3rlGCfkiHXMsjg3cs%3D&reserved=0> J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty From: Pete Perkins [mailto:00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] power strip details Esteemed colleagues, Here in North America a domestic or commercial multi-outlet power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet protected by a 15A (or sometimes 20A) circuit breaker. The max load allowed in the circuit by the US NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A for the total load (or 80% of 20A) 16A on the 20A breaker. Note that the US NEC requires that any device plugged into a duplex outlet must not use the full load capacity of the circuit - 20% must be left for the other outlet's load. Trying to understand the loading basis for a Euro power strip. Is the usual protection a 10A breaker? And would the power strip be rated and evaluated at that load level? What other considerations come into play here? How about a UK power strip. The usual protection is the 13A fuse in the power plug (altho smaller values seemed to be used also). Would the power strip be rated and evaluated at that load level? What other considerations come into play here. For a Japanese power strip what is the normal breaker protection for the installed circuit? What would be the max rated load for the power strip? What other considerations come into play here also? Looking forward to your replies on this issue. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 p.perk...@ieee.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps es.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc 456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6364107 69320565642&sdata=5dBvPox7C0mCx%2FMgb233Yjkfb46zriT9rOidRvvoy3I%3D&reserved= 0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-com pliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc 456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6364107 69320565642&sdata=JCOF2Ybff10utEHWkev4PiDn5eOv%2FTL4xCKbQSPEy14%3D&reserved= 0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps es.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308 d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&s data=eEf4QoehQXB70sNJSGMtXavZ99vUiefFeNBBMqKobyc%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps es.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc4564 43dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63641076932 0565642&sdata=NIBbkZFTMHUztTrweht7Ifwp%2FTTSTAaal8wqyEXNmlc%3D&reserved=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps es.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fb c456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410 769320565642&sdata=gGkEheEXEaBcAUqKye3YFEk6cf37IRqYro4nAvMpMYw%3D&reserved=0 > For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps es.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc 456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6364107 69320565642&sdata=5dBvPox7C0mCx%2FMgb233Yjkfb46zriT9rOidRvvoy3I%3D&reserved= 0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-com pliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc 456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6364107 69320565642&sdata=JCOF2Ybff10utEHWkev4PiDn5eOv%2FTL4xCKbQSPEy14%3D&reserved= 0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps es.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308 d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&s data=eEf4QoehQXB70sNJSGMtXavZ99vUiefFeNBBMqKobyc%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps es.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc4564 43dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63641076932 0565642&sdata=NIBbkZFTMHUztTrweht7Ifwp%2FTTSTAaal8wqyEXNmlc%3D&reserved=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-ps es.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fb c456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410 769320565642&sdata=gGkEheEXEaBcAUqKye3YFEk6cf37IRqYro4nAvMpMYw%3D&reserved=0 > For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
