Most interesting. Thanks.
*From:*msherma...@comcast.net [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:27 PM
*To:* Kunde, Brian
*Cc:* EMC-PSTC
*Subject:* [BULK] Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
*Importance:* Low
IEC TC 116 in in the process of folding the 60745-1 (hand held motor
operated tool) standards into the 62841 series (Electric
motor-operated hand-held tools, transportable tools and lawn and
garden machinery). See their dashboard at:
http://www.iec.ch/dyn/www/f?p=103:30:13397277133783::::FSP_ORG_ID,FSP_LANG_ID:4112,25
My reference was not from a part 2, but actually from section 21.16 of
60745-1:
"
Tools employing liquid systems shall protect the user against the
increased risk of
shock due to the presence of liquid under conditions of normal use and
the faults of the liquid
system.
Tools employing liquid systems shall be either:
• of class III construction;
• of class I or class II construction and be provided with a residual
current device and comply
with 14.4, 14.5 and 14.6; or
• of class I or class II construction and be designed for use in
combination with an isolating
transformer and comply with 14.4 and 14.5.
"
Section 14.4 describes using a salt water mix to simulate overfilling
or misassembling and then testing for leakage.
I do not know whether your product falls within scope of 62841;
perhaps your favorite NRTL could help. Your favorite NRTL might even
have someone on the committee who could help with a question.
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com
<mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>>
*To: *msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>
*Cc: *"EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
*Sent: *Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:58:25 AM
*Subject: *RE: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
Mike,
Thanks for your offer. I assume the requirement for RCD is limited to
hand-held or portable power tools that uses water. This is interesting
because I didn’t know this was a requirement.
In our case, the cut-off saw we are looking at weighs over 300 lbs.
Defiantly not hand-held any probably not considered portable
(depending on your definition).
Do you know if there are similar requirements for non-hand-held
electric saws/tools?
Thanks,
The Other Brian
*From:*msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>
[mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:29 PM
*To:* Kunde, Brian
*Cc:* EMC-PSTC
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
Brian --
I think I've seen a Part 2 standard for 60745-1, as I recall, that
required a RCD if the tool used water and the water ended up in the
wrong place electrically. If you'd like a screen shot of the section,
I can probably find it for you.
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Brian Kunde" <brian_ku...@lecotc.com
<mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>>
*To: *"EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
*Sent: *Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:06:36 AM
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
Where Pete stated, “The Euro systems use of RCDs require this
protection in many installations (but I’m not familiar with the
installation code details)”. This “Code” is probably what I am seeking.
Has anyone run across a Code rule that requires the Product to employ
a RCCB within the product? If the local electrical code requires a
RCCB, cannot this protection be provided as part of the site
protection? Why burden the cost of a product where such a requirement
may only be necessary in a small percentage of installations?
The main purpose of my question on this topic is cost. Here in the
USA, a GFCI receptacle is very inexpensive; costing around $10 at most
home stores. But a 3-phase RCD Circuit Breaker can cost $300-$400.
On some products, such as a tile saw that uses water, this can more
than double the cost of the entire product. So knowing when and where
they are required is very important.
Thanks again to everyone for your consideration. From what I have
read so far on this topic, it is a moving target as electric codes
from different states and countries are always evolving and the code
governing the requirements of RCDs and GFCIs are common to change.
Thanks,
Brian
*From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:13 AM
*To:* Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE
You can rely on the recent post in this thread by Pete Perkins.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-01-31 15:52, Kunde, Brian wrote:
Thanks for the input everyone.
I know that GFCI protectors in North America will trip between
4-6mA. Do other countries, such as Europe, have the same
requirements?
Or are 30mA protectors used in Europe? If so, does Europe use 30mA
ground fault protectors because of nuisance tripping even though
the studies have shown that 30mA can be fatal?
These 3-phase cut-off saws that I’m evaluating comes with a power
cord, but no plug. They can be field wired or a plug could be
added and plugged it into a receptacle. The choice is left up to
the customer.
The saw uses water but the work environment would not normally be
considered a “wet location”. It would not be used in a
construction location.
So again, I’m trying to figure out why the saw manufacturer used
the expensive 30mA ground fault breakers in their product.
Thanks,
The Other Brian
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*LECO Corporation Notice:*This communication may contain
confidential information intended for the named recipient(s)
only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and
notify us of the error. Thank you.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*LECO Corporation Notice:*This communication may contain
confidential information intended for the named recipient(s)
only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and
notify us of the error. Thank you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*LECO Corporation Notice:* This communication may contain
confidential information intended for the named recipient(s)
only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and
notify us of the error. Thank you.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
