Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[John Woodgate]

I take your point, but I wasn't proposing a full replication of the 
earlier work. A confirmatory paper or two, citing the earlier work and 
using modern measuring instruments, and indeed looking at the 
environment factor, would support the case for improving the standard.

By 'environment factor' I refer to the recent report that different 
results with the same equipment were obtained in an absorptive 
environment and in a screened room.

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-10-15 17:18, doug emcesd.com wrote:
That is true, but only after the author was familiar with all previous 
work. The work was comprehensive and it is hard to imagine a different 
result happening. Anyone who wants to restudy the subject will need a 
BIG budget, just for all the round robin testing that was done. Bell 
Labs contributed more than one million $ to the effort by my 
calculation, not to mention many other companies. I bet the total 
effort was ten million $!

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
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*From:* John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk>
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2019 00:52
*To:* doug emcesd.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when 
Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

No doubt it was very good work, but its OLD. One or two new papers 
would be a good thing.

Best wishesJohn Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions OnlyJ M Woodgate and 
Associateswww.woodjohn.ukRayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-10-15 06:39, doug emcesd.com wrote:
This was pretty much done in the 90s with many round robin tests. The 
culprit is the lack of di/dt control and lack of control on EM 
radiation from the simulator. The two factors dominate everything 
else. No need to duplicate previous work. Just read the papers on the 
results from the significant amount of research that was done, of 
which I was a part.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Ken Javor<ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2019 8:17:52 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when 
Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)
No insight into what Doug mentioned, but before tightening up on 
equipment performance requirements, with attendant cost impact to 
test facilities, I would want to know that the variability between 
test facilities due to practice are not the dominating factor.  I 
would want to improve test procedure controls to where everyone does 
the test close enough to the same that if there is still unacceptable 
variability, then, and only then, do we look at the test equipment.

In order to assess that, you would round-robin using the same model 
of gun.

Perhaps that is one of the many things to which Doug referred.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"doug emcesd.com" <d...@emcesd.com>
*Reply-To: *"doug emcesd.com" <d...@emcesd.com>
*Date: *Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:41:42 +0000
*To: *<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Conversation: *[PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when 
Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when 
Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi Montara,

There are more stories than I can type here. The standard as written 
is not very good. We addressed this in the early to mid-1990s and 
determined what was necessary. We also did a lot of round robin 
testing. Probably most of what you want has been published in the 
1990s. Look at the ESD Association papers from the era. Look for 
authors like myself (we were all involved with revising 61000-4-2), 
Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Hugh Hyatt.

Everything you need was done back then and rejected by the EU members 
for various reasons that I do not consider valid.

Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Monrad Monsen<monrad.mon...@oracle.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2019 9:43:54 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing 
Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi!
Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting 
a different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD 
simulator?

I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of 
information technology equipment, multimedia equipment and 
receivers). There is a proposal that SC77B begin work on changes to 
IEC 61000-4-2 (ESD) to improve the ESD waveform verification (some 
call this “calibration”) because under today’s rules different 
simulators create different levels of high frequency signal content 
which some believe is the primary reason for different test results. 
 Some believe that the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to 
include any evaluation of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, 
and that uncontrolled parameter directly affects spectral content.  I 
would like to know if anyone has experienced any actual ESD test 
result consistency when using different Brand/model ESD simulators 
even though they are all calibrated simulators under today’s rules.

I admit that our company uses the same brand & model ESD simulator as 
local labs, so I have never observed this issue myself.  My initial 
preference is to not add cost to testing and avoid forcing labs to 
buy new ESD simulators, but perhaps this cost is warranted if there 
are actual wide variations in ESD test results depending on the brand 
of ESD simulator.

Thanks.

Monrad Monsen | Hardware Compliance Strategist
Phone: +1.303.272.9612
Oracle Market Access & Hardware Compliance Strategy
500 Eldorado Blvd | Broomfield, CO 80021



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