Ken - once again, I agree with you. I don't see any path where dual antenna or dual tone can be used for thresholding and debug Finding any susceptibility moves a test to "normal" mode.
My motivation comes from the last RS test I was in... (really, every RS test I've ever been in!) It was 8 to 10 hours of boredom with one or two minutes of excitement. As an engineer, I can't help but ask, how can I make this more efficient? Or... Why spend 10 hours in test, when 2.5 hours might provide the same result? On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:20 AM Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> wrote: > If the signal generators are inexpensive enough, more signals is more > efficient. Rather than two antennas, I again suggest a log-spiral, where > you get both polarizations at once. > > > > With any of these “hurry up” schemes, if you see a susceptibility, you > will need to step back and use the traditional technique. > > > > -- > > Ken Javor > > (256) 650-5261 > > > > *From: *Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> > *Reply-To: *Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> > *Date: *Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14 PM > *To: *<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? > > > > yes, agree. > > two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR. So what is next level > improvement? > > > > Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V&H ? > > > > Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x. > > > > On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> wrote: > > The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single > antenna seems simpler. > > > > -- > > Ken Javor > > (256) 650-5261 > > > > *From: *Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> > *Reply-To: *Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> > *Date: *Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:01 AM > *To: *<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? > > > > Hi Bill and everyone- > > I am grateful for the insights. > > > > I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions. > > Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ). > > The insights on emissions are a great start. > > > > Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity? > > > > -Patrick. > > > > On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley < > 000000f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in > testing. > We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m.. > NSA came out fine. Been doing it for about 3 or more decades. > If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware. > One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m. > All interesting freq noted for followup. > > > ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later. > Useless info to fill out. Every test setup is different, even using the > same equipment. > > > > > > > > On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer < > 000012867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > > > > > > Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the > problem with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle > for V and H is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height > at the same time. > > > > There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna > and mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect > results? > > > > I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data > to investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back > burner. > > > > > > > > [image: cid:18099e0080c99d407143] > > *David Schaefer*** > > Technical Manager > > Element Materials Technology > > 9349 W Broadway Ave > > Brooklyn Park > > , > > MN > > 55445 > > , > > United States > > O *+1 612 638 5136* > > ext. 10461 > > *david.schae...@element.com* <david.schae...@element.com> > > www.element.com > > [image: cid:18099e0080ce3bbe0cd4] > <https://www.linkedin.com/organization-guest/company/element-materials-technology?challengeId=AQFf9AemZ4SobwAAAXOQwivOsnkHiTt2ByoCkOxVQjOGOjRlivicVgYlN1dz5QXjId9bpa0keWzfVxhl8KPj78uD6-S6nfqRsg&submissionId=e49e0dc0-96a3-2516-27fa-ee2e8c42b177> > > [image: cid:18099e0080cd97345b81] <https://twitter.com/ElementTesting/> > > [image: cid:18099e0080c8926e77f2] > <https://elementmaterials.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3xQqm84s6IydI5D> > > *From:* Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com] > *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? > > > > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of Element Materials > Technology. *DO NOT* click links or open attachments unless you recognize > the sender and know the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if > you are in any doubt about this email. > > Hi, > > > > I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical > polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok > for pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you > still have to test each frequency and polarization one by one. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Dieter Paasche > > > > This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential. Any > unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited. If you have > received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply > e-mail or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer > system and records. > > > > *From:* Manny Barron <mbar...@ieee.org> > *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? > > > > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > > Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq > in 1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in > Washington state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking > of getting a 2nd 10m chamber, which we did). > > > > Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their > RE tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two > frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two > antennas and two receivers. At that time they were also experimenting with > 4 antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was > actually implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle > the multiple antenna / receiver combinations. The guy who ran that HP EMC > test lab was Bob Dockey who later went to Philips Medical, if you can find > him maybe he can elaborate on their RE test system of the time. > > > > A year later we (now Compaq) purchased a new 10m chamber (now we had two), > so I was thinking about the two antenna RE test method as well. But then > in 2002 (now HP), HP shut down two full EMC labs with three 10m chambers > (all within 1 mi area in Cupertino, CA), and laid off almost all EMC > personnel, something about too many labs and equipment after the corporate > merger. They ended up taking equipment to be tested to their Roseville, CA > EMC test lab, about 100 miles north. > > > > So I never got a chance to research and implement the 2 antenna RE test > system. Had all the equipment, but it was too late. > > > > Manny Barron > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 11:00 AM Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi All - > > > > I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use > of two antennas during an emissions test. For example, research or > experiments on the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one > vertical, the other horizontal. > > > > Have any researchers looked at this? > > Are there any experimental studies? > > > > Thank you. > > -Patrick > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
