My apologies to everyone - I did not intend to drift into a political discussion! My question was meant to be focused on the product safety / regulatory concerns that arose after Brexit (that is, ones that did not previously exist), NOT whether sovereignty is good or bad in any other way.
>From just that single-minded perspective I found in my own job that Brexit created more work without adding an iota of value to the product. Also from that selfish point-of-view I would hate to see the other countries in the EU decide to seize national sovereignty and implement their own regulations, their own markings and their own paperwork. 😖 In other words from the narrow product safety / regulatory position (which is how I was looking at it), "encouraging [the UK] to exit from the EU" did the OPPOSITE of the "removal of unnecessary trade barriers". It may or may not have had other beneficial results - a political argument for which this is NOT the forum - but for me it just meant more paperwork that previously had not existed. Along the same lines in the US - the National Electric Code (NEC) is a guide for the thousands of Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) within the country - in other words "sovereignty" within their city / county / state - to decide what applies to their bailiwick. Does this make life easier for those trying to build or install a product if the standards vary across the country? Certainly not! Which of course is one reason why UL / Intertek / CSA / other NRTLs have been successful. But that is another discussion. Best regards, John McBain On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 11:18 AM Lfresearch <lfresea...@aol.com> wrote: > Easy John, but first address my key issue with the EU: surrender of > sovereignty. Period. > > Second, EU is not the only trading market, something missed by members of > the community. It’s a fact the CE mark adds way more cost than the return > on investment of performance improvement. Not having to do this simplifies > the route to market compliance and hence makes the product cheaper. > > I could go on, but I have to teach today, I’d be happy to resume the > discussion later. > > BUT, reemphasize my first point: surrender of sovereignty. Period. > > Cheers, > > Derek. > > > On Nov 7, 2022, at 1:04 PM, John Mcbain <johnmcb...@ieee.org> wrote: > > Hello Lfresearch - > > Would you please explain to me how you reconcile "removal of unnecessary > trade barriers" and "encouraging for England [*note: actually UK*] to > exit from the EU"? > Those views seem to be mutually incompatible, since Brexit has raised new > non-tariff trade barriers (additional certifications, markings, etc.). > > Best regards, > John McBain > > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:14 AM Lfresearch < > 000000734758d943-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: > >> I think most people have learned to not listen to MSM, but rely on >> individuals in groups like this to further knowledge. It’s highly >> beneficial to have working members, most without a dog in the fight, in >> multiple economic zones. >> >> That said, and to counterpoint a different position, I was originally in >> favor of England joining the EU many years ago since the idea of removing >> barriers to free trade is highly appealing. >> >> HOWEVER, what has transpired while populations have been asleep at the >> wheel is nothing other than a power grab of sovereignty: Totally >> unacceptable and it was highly encouraging for England to exit from the EU >> and I hope other will follow. I have a hope that the UK and the rest of the >> world can work toward the removal of unnecessary trade barriers and >> standardization. Something I devote many hours a day promoting. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Derek. >> >> On Nov 7, 2022, at 11:45 AM, Doug Powell <doug...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Thanks John, >> >> As you can imagine mainstream media tends to give us a filtered view, >> with various unspoken motivations. This is the very reason I do not rely >> upon a single source. And of course, guidance provided on >> https://www.gov.uk should always be viewed in its official capacity. >> >> I appreciate your insider's perspective, -Doug >> >> >> Douglas E Powell >> Laporte, Colorado USA >> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> >> >> (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) >> >> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:58 AM <john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> Doug & co >>> >>> >>> >>> I can only speak for myself and what I have seen & heard in the >>> mainstream broadcast media (don’t do Twitter, FB etc!). >>> >>> >>> >>> The majority viewpoint seems to be that it is far too late to do >>> anything in the short-medium term about re-joining the EU, even if there >>> was another referendum on the subject that said “Yes, Rejoin”. None of the >>> main-stream political parties are pushing for it *(at least those in >>> England, but there are very different views held by some parties in Wales, >>> N. Ireland and especially the SNP in Scotland!).* >>> >>> >>> >>> Thus I can’t see it happening “anytime soon”, if at all! >>> >>> >>> >>> FWIW: To state my personal perspective, I was very much in favour of the >>> UK joining in the first place many years ago because of my experiences of >>> the many “technical barriers to trade” which made exporting to the then >>> (IIRC!) Common Market countries really difficult due to all the differences >>> between them. Then, in the Referendum I was very much in favour of >>> Remaining in the EC & very disappointed in the (marginal!) result *(my >>> opinion of those who voted to leave was/still is fairly unprintable – >>> something about “cutting off your nose to spite your face”!)* >>> >>> >>> >>> John E Allen >>> >>> W. London, UK >>> >>> *From:* Doug Powell <doug...@gmail.com> >>> *Sent:* 07 November 2022 16:15 >>> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] FW: Intertek message FYI: Important Update: >>> Pending Regulatory Change to UKCA Program >>> >>> >>> >>> I've been watching the latest UK news with interest. From >>> my perspective in the US news media, it seems with the financial, energy, >>> and PM woes, there is a small movement discussing how BREXIT may have been >>> a mistake. Possibly John Allen can elaborate about how the locals feel >>> about this, Is there any real possibility of reverting to EU membership, or >>> not? >>> >>> >>> >>> thanks, -Doug >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Douglas E Powell >>> >>> Laporte, Colorado USA >>> >>> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> >>> >>> >>> >>> (UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 8:53 AM Richard Georgerian < >>> richa...@mesanetworks.net> wrote: >>> >>> Greetings all, >>> >>> >>> >>> As a follow-up to John Allen’s email below – >>> >>> >>> >>> Has the UK submitted and/or passed any legislation for the UKCA >>> labelling easement until December 31, 2025? Otherwise, the UKCA labelling >>> starts on December 31, 2022. >>> >>> I went to the www.gov.uk website and there is no mention of the >>> specific legislation. Just the announcement that the UK *intends to >>> submit* legislation for the easement. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank-you, >>> >>> >>> >>> …Richard Georgerian >>> >>> Compliance Engineer >>> >>> HID Global >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* John E Allen <000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 4, 2022 9:01 AM >>> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >>> *Subject:* [PSES] FW: Intertek message FYI: Important Update: Pending >>> Regulatory Change to UKCA Program >>> >>> >>> >>> For anyone who has not seen this or something similar! >>> >>> >>> >>> John E Allen >>> >>> W.London, UK >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Intertek <nore...@e.intertek.com> >>> *Sent:* 03 August 2022 12:58 >>> *To:* john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk >>> *Subject:* Important Update: Pending Regulatory Change to UKCA Program >>> >>> >>> >>> The UK Government has announced its intention to introduce new >>> regulation as a principle >>> ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ ͏ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [image: Intertek] >>> <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/pwaLHKk2DmCr/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/b3grNmY2R3BIM2RhZ1VheDBwYlVydUt2VjRQV3piYUtiOHgvbTNvSGIyd3g0eVQrVEVMbEtJWElxS0V0U2lZNjZveVQzQTFUSjF3YjZnaWhyNDNLR2E5b0dZUFduUFgvZGhlQVZBLzM1YncxYVY1TE8zcU5EVitsbnRmMGNBMDBEUENMaE9QTmVudmhvM1Q1MXJrcmZQZkR1MkZtRXo2bU1wVVgrWTlIVFY0PQS2> >>> >>> [image: Total Quality. Assured.] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *The UK is pending a regulatory change to their UKCA Program* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The UK Government has announced its intention to introduce new >>> regulation as a principle so to reduce the costs involved for the >>> re-certification/re-testing of products for UKCA marking. This new >>> regulation, when introduced (no timelines given), and based on the summary >>> notice criteria, will effectively increase the acceptance of CE marking of >>> products as a means of meeting UKCA marking requirements. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Until this new regulation is introduced, the current framework, >>> timelines and conformity assessment process for UKCA marking remains, in >>> that from 01 January 2023, CE marking will no longer be accepted when >>> placing product onto the Great Britain Market.* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The full details of the UK Government announcement can be found here >>> <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/K6~VJWdr~zQZ/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/>. >>> Please refer to the 22 June update. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *READ THE UPDATE* >>> <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/_k~8BzWqA_QR/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *On Introduction of The New Regulation* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In summary, product conformity assessment will see the following >>> changes: >>> >>> >>> >>> - Completed conformity assessment activities carried out on product >>> under EU requirements (including existing testing, certification, and >>> contractual arrangements relating to the quality control or auditing of >>> existing certificates) undertaken by non-UK conformity assessment bodies >>> (EU Notified Bodies accredited by their national accreditation body) for >>> CE >>> certification before 1 January 2023 to be used by manufacturers to >>> declare >>> existing product types as compliant with UKCA. >>> - Products must still bear UKCA marking and will need to undergo >>> conformity assessment with a UK Approved Body at the expiry of the >>> certificate or after 5 years (31 December 2027), whichever is sooner. >>> - Manufacturers to apply the UKCA mark without the need for any >>> UK-recognised CAB involvement and continue to place their goods on the >>> market, on the basis of their existing CE type examination completed >>> before >>> 31 December 2022, for the lifetime of the certificate issued, or until 31 >>> December 2027 (whichever is sooner). >>> - Conformity assessment procedures not completed and supported by a >>> CE certificate issued before 1 January 2023, these products are >>> considered >>> ‘new’ products. This also includes where goods are subject to important >>> changes, overhauling its original performance, purpose, or type requiring >>> new certification. Any ‘new’ good must comply with GB regulatory >>> requirements, including the requirement for conformity assessment by a UK >>> approved body from 1 January 2023. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The new legislation when introduced concerning UKCA marking effect only >>> the following UK Regulations: >>> >>> >>> >>> - Noise Emission in the Environment by Equipment for Outdoor Use >>> Regulations 2001 >>> - Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 2008 >>> Ecodesign for Energy-Related Products Regulations 2010 >>> - Toys (Safety) Regulations 2011 >>> - Explosives Regulations 2014 >>> - Pyrotechnic Articles (Safety) Regulations 2015 >>> - Electromagnetic Compatibility Regulations 2016 >>> - Simple Pressure Vessels (Safety) Regulations 2016 >>> - Lifts Regulations 2016 >>> - Pressure Equipment (Safety) Regulations 2016 >>> - Equipment and Protective Systems Intended for Use in Potentially >>> Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2016 >>> - Non-automatic Weighing Instruments Regulations 2016 >>> - Measuring Instruments Regulations 2016 >>> - Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 >>> - Radio Equipment Regulations 2017 >>> - Regulation 2016/425 on personal protective equipment as it applies >>> in GB >>> - Regulation 2016/426 on gas appliances as it applies in GB >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [image: Globe Icon] >>> >>> *Our Address* >>> >>> Intertek >>> Day Ave >>> Knowlhill >>> Milton Keynes >>> MK5 8NL >>> >>> [image: img] >>> >>> *Urgent Testing Need?* >>> >>> Contact us today at: >>> *AMER: *+1 800 WORLDLAB or +1 251 459 6173 >>> *EMEA: *+44 116 296 1620 >>> *APAC: *+852 2173 8888 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> intertek.com >>> <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/DA3KfDPEaqQb/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/b3grNmY2R3BIM2RhZ1VheDBwYlVydUt2VjRQV3piYUtiOHgvbTNvSGIyd3g0eVQrVEVMbEtJWElxS0V0U2lZNjZveVQzQTFUSjF3YjZnaWhyNDNLR2E5b0dZUFduUFgvZGhlQVZBLzM1YncxYVY1TE8zcU5EVitsbnRmMGNBMDBEUENMaE9QTmVudmhvM1Q1MXJrcmZQZkR1MkZtRXo2bU1wVVgrWTlIVFY0PQS2> >>> >>> >>> >>> Privacy Policy >>> <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/3Yz6H9aXD7Sg/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/b3grNmY2R3BIM2RhZ1VheDBwYlVydUt2VjRQV3piYUtiOHgvbTNvSGIyd3g0eVQrVEVMbEtJWElxS0V0U2lZNjZveVQzQTFUSjF3YjZnaWhyNDNLR2E5b0dZUFduUFgvZGhlQVZBLzM1YncxYVY1TE8zcU5EVitsbnRmMGNBMDBEUENMaE9QTmVudmhvM1Q1MXJrcmZQZkR1MkZtRXo2bU1wVVgrWTlIVFY0PQS2> >>> | Opt out of all communications >>> <https://e1.intertek.com/ic-optout/default?spMailingID=27103363&spUserID=MTkxNDM3Mjc5NTQwS0&spJobID=MjI0NDUzOTA1MQS2&spReportId=MjI0NDUzOTA1MQS2> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *This email was sent to john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk >>> <john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk>.* >>> >>> >>> <http://links.intertek.mkt4245.com/els/v2/89g4FVm4_ZtY/WFpETTVWYjJqaDhRL3kwZmJzejB4VE05NlQwVlBlNUtvRGx0dDVOaWNGZ0RZYmtrdCtybytMRVJxb0UwWVhzRnBkaWZROWJwcnJiU1BjTWdxc0J4MDduTUxhQWx0R1k2d2c1TTNWR2ZSMFE9S0/b3grNmY2R3BIM2RhZ1VheDBwYlVydUt2VjRQV3piYUtiOHgvbTNvSGIyd3g0eVQrVEVMbEtJWElxS0V0U2lZNjZveVQzQTFUSjF3YjZnaWhyNDNLR2E5b0dZUFduUFgvZGhlQVZBLzM1YncxYVY1TE8zcU5EVitsbnRmMGNBMDBEUENMaE9QTmVudmhvM1Q1MXJrcmZQZkR1MkZtRXo2bU1wVVgrWTlIVFY0PQS2> >>> >>> - >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society >>> emc-pstc discussion list. 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