Silly wild ass guess is what I mean when I use that acronym.
-- Ken Javor Ph: (256) 650-5261 From: "James Pawson (U3C)" <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> Reply-To: "James Pawson (U3C)" <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2024 at 7:29 AM To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] dielectric strength question Could someone define the acronym SWAG in this context please? Something With Air Gap? All the best James James Pawson Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver Unit 3 Compliance Ltd EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy www.unit3compliance.co.uk | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 Office hours: Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and troubleshooting activities for our customers’ projects. I’m available/contactable between 1300h to 1730h Mon/Tue/Thurs/Fri. For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email on he...@unit3compliance.co.uk or call 01274 911747. Our lead times for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks. From: Adam Dixon <lanterna.viri...@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2024 1:24 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] dielectric strength question SWAG #2: non-uniformities in materials + multiple breakdown mechanisms make it difficult to model. Mica shows up in 1940's vintage literature. Here are some interesting papers that I perused after Rich posed the question: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=9079498 Space change behavior in cross-linked polymers https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/app.49379 Touches on different breakdown mechanisms (see Figure 3; also the Figure 2 reference may be worthwhile but I haven't tried accessing it) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7764431/ electron injection and avalanche breakdown process https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=65f577afe99e3253e7e3f38054ce9ea49b16a636 Electromechanical breakdown mechanism but also states "The exact cause for the observed behavior remains to be investigated" https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA635433.pdf Paschen Curve anomalies (for consideration of gas dielectrics) https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1656858 Describes influence of polymer chain ends (Figure 1 is a good illustration) Cheers, Adam in Atlanta adam.di...@ieee.org On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 11:00 PM Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> wrote: just a SWAG... perhaps dielectric strength is dependent on volume, and the increased 'thickness' is assumed to be thickness-for-a-constant-surface-area. If that's the case then an increasing thickness is also an increased volume which also increases available charge carriers, reducing breakdown voltage. A test of my SWAG would be to incrementally increase dielectric thickness and determine if breakdown voltage eventually finds a minimum and then begins to increase with thickness. interesting question. On Sun, Jun 23, 2024, 13:32 Richard Nute <ri...@ieee.org> wrote: Why does air (or any insulating material) have decreasing dielectric strength, kV/mm, with increasing distance through the dielectric substance? Assume homogenous field. (I have assumed the dielectric strength was constant for the material.) In other words, what is the physical basis for the non-constant dielectric strength clearance tables in various safety standards? (I have yet to find the answer from the web.) How can I predict the dielectric constant for a given distance through air (or any insulation)? Charles J. Fraser, in Mechanical Engineer's Reference Book (Twelfth Edition), 1994: If the potential difference across opposite faces of a dielectric material is increased above a particular value, the material breaks down. The failure of the material takes the form of a small puncture, which renders the material useless as an insulator. The potential gradient necessary to cause break down is normally expressed in kilovolts/millimetre and is termed the ‘dielectric strength’. The dielectric strength of a given material decreases with increases in the thickness. Table 2.2 gives approximate values for some of the more common dielectric materials. Table 2.2. Dielectric strength of some common insulators Material Thickness (mm) Dielectric strength (kV/mm) Air 0.2 5.75 0.6 4.92 1.0 4.36 10.0 2.98 Mica 0.01 200 0.10 115 1.00 61 Thanks, and best regards, Rich This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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