No, they are not. Yes most small high speed router spindles (less than 10hp) are 2 pole. But all of the big HSK-63f tool changer spindles on our big routers at work (9kw+) are 4 pole. Which by the way makes getting a suitable VFD to run them much much more difficult. Most VFDs are limited to max output frequencies of about 500hz. (Something about preventing people from building high speed centrifuges I think.)
Todd Zuercher P. Graham Dunn Inc. 630 Henry Street Dalton, Ohio 44618 Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 -----Original Message----- From: Viesturs Lācis <viesturs.la...@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:18 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. Leonardo, are you sure about those Hz vs. RPM numbers? AFAIK all high speed spindles are 2-pole motors (correct me if I am wrong on this), then you should have 200 Hz for 200 RPS = 12000 RPM and 400 Hz for 400 RPS = 24000 RPM Viesturs pirmd., 2023. g. 13. marts, plkst. 18:55 — lietotājs Leonardo Marsaglia (<ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) rakstīja: > > By the way, the nominal frequency is 400 hz at 12000 rpm. Nominal > voltage is 380 volts but that varies of course when the VFD is > working. Max frequency is 800 hz at 24000 rpm but I never came close to that. > > El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:50, Leonardo Marsaglia > (<ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) > escribió: > > > Hi Todd, and thanks for the response! > > > > Well the manufacturer only gave nominal and max speed for the > > spindle and a couple of graphics to see the u.f. and p.f. curves to have > > some guidance. > > I'm always using the spindle at 15000 rpm so I think that's ok. Also > > I've been using it like this for more than 6 months with no troubles > > and it was working almost 10 hours straight each day. > > > > The spindle sounds right when at high speed and with no cutting > > forces involved, I can't feel any difference from the first time I > > tested it. Also by hand it feels the same as always but that could > > be my perception off course. > > > > Anyway, last Saturday we tested it again. First 25 minutes of > > warming up without cutting. The temperature settled at 55°C at the > > body of the spindle. Then we cut a board for about 40 minutes. We > > monitored the spindle temperature at the bearings and stator and > > never exceeded the 65°C at the stator / 57°C at the bearings. VFD > > current, voltage and internal temperature were ok (no more than 43°C > > when working at full load on the VFD). Then we started to cut > > another board and that's when the VFD started giving problems. At > > the moment we tried to accelerate the spindle to 15000 rpm (I'm > > using a 10 seconds ramp approximately to reach 15000 rpm) the > > overcurrent alarm started . There was no way of making it to work. It looks > > to me that the VFD could be the problem because everything else was ok. > > > > Today I'm going to test it again before taking it apart, and then > > I'll open it and check the capacitors and all the joints to see if I > > see an evident problem there. But I'm almost 100% sure the problem is in > > the VFD. > > > > > > > > El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:19, Todd Zuercher > > (<to...@pgrahamdunn.com>) > > escribió: > > > >> The wrong VFD settings can cause an overheat due to overcurrent. > >> Were you running the spindle at lower RPMs? Router spindles > >> generally don't like running at speeds less than 6000rpm, > >> especially if the VFD settings aren’t right. The VFD needs to be > >> set so that it reduces the voltage applied with reduced frequency. > >> If this volt/hz reduction curve isn't right, either you can over > >> current and overheat the motor at lower speeds, or if set too low > >> you lose what little torque the spindle has. To know what these > >> settings need to be set to you need to know the motor's rated speed > >> and voltage at those speeds and current ratings. If the spindle > >> manufacturer didn't supply a midrange voltage setting, you may need to > >> find that setting experimentally. > >> > >> That said, high speed spindle bearings can be failing and the > >> spindle still spin mostly freely by hand, but the spindle will be > >> loud at speed due to vibration and will overheat if run for > >> extended periods of time at speed. A high speed spindle should be > >> very quiet at speed (not sound like a conventional router motor.) > >> Check for any slightest notchy-ness, when turning the spindle by > >> hand. It is often more cost-effective to have a loud spindle > >> rebuilt before it totally fails, than to run it till it won’t run > >> anymore and then try to rebuilt it or have to replace it because damage to > >> the spindle is too severe. > >> > >> What are your spindle motor’s rated speed, voltage and current? > >> What do you have the VFD set up for minimum, maximum, base and > >> mid-range voltages, and frequencies? Yes, those are 8 separate > >> settings that most VFDs need to have configured to run a high speed > >> spindle correctly. Unfortunately many times the spindle > >> manufacture will only provide you with the spindle’s rated > >> frequency and voltage (use this for the “Base” frequency and > >> voltage in the VFD) and the maximum frequency and maybe voltage. > >> If you are lucky and the spindle manufacture provided you with some > >> numbers to use for the mid-range settings if so, use them. They > >> may not be called that, it might just look like a low or minimum > >> speed setting with a reduced voltage (might be 5-7k rpm). If you > >> don’t have a recommendation from the spindle manufacture, > >> experiment with different mid-range voltage settings to find one that > >> keeps the VFD’s current output safely below the spindles rated continuous > >> current. > >> > >> For example I was just working at replacing a VFD for an HSD > >> spindle that had recommendations for 7k rpm @ 220v for the > >> mid-range, but I also had to set the minimum frequency and voltage > >> to 0.5Hz and 1.0v, to prevent the motor from occasionally stalling > >> on acceleration when starting from stopped. When those settings > >> were incorrect the drive would overcurrent and shut down. When > >> they were close but not quite right the drive would run at high > >> current and not always accelerate correctly (stalling). With them > >> correct the drive accelerates the spindle quickly and only shows peak > >> currents of about 15amps while doing it. > >> > >> PS I meant to send this last week, but forgot to click send, so it > >> sat on my work computer till this morning. > >> > >> Todd Zuercher > >> P. Graham Dunn Inc. > >> 630 Henry Street > >> Dalton, Ohio 44618 > >> Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 9:20 AM > >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > >> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem > >> > >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > >> > >> In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled down a > >> bit, it started to work ok until I had the problem again. What I'm > >> mostly worried about is, if this was caused due to an overheat, why > >> did that overheat occur in the first place? > >> > >> El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia (< > >> ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) > >> escribió: > >> > >> > Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather > >> > particular > >> >> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance. > >> >> What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may > >> >> need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and voltage. > >> >> What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve to > >> >> help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs, > >> >> and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration. > >> >> These settings usually need to be significantly different from > >> >> most VFD's default setting (which are usually configured for a > >> >> 60hz > >> >> motor.) > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi Todd, > >> > > >> > I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for > >> > you to see. But this setup was working well until the extreme > >> > heat days > >> started. > >> > > >> > Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could > >> > have made the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit > >> > before and the extreme heat conditions triggered the effect? > >> > > >> > Thank you! > >> > > >> > El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher > >> > (<to...@pgrahamdunn.com>) > >> > escribió: > >> > > >> >> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather > >> >> particular about how the VFD is configured because of their low > >> >> inductance. What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? > >> >> You may need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and > >> >> voltage. What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz > >> >> curve to help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at > >> >> lower RPMs, and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on > >> >> acceleration. These settings usually need to be significantly > >> >> different from most VFD's default setting (which are usually > >> >> configured for a 60hz > >> >> motor.) > >> >> > >> >> Todd Zuercher > >> >> P. Graham Dunn Inc. > >> >> 630 Henry Street > >> >> Dalton, Ohio 44618 > >> >> Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM > >> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > >> >> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem > >> >> > >> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > >> >> > >> >> Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM > >> >> and the temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the > >> >> bearings for the tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body > >> >> part where the > >> stator is. > >> >> According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, > >> >> 75ºC it's a pretty common working temperature. I'm still waiting > >> >> for a detailed answer from the factory. This time, the VFD > >> >> worked fine, no whining with no rotor spin. Now I need to cut > >> >> some wood while monitoring the temperature during the process > >> >> and hope the temperature > >> doesn't go too high. > >> >> > >> >> Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From what I > >> >> can tell the problem could be the VFD as Gene and Jon pointed out. > >> >> > >> >> I'll let you know how it goes when cutting wood again. > >> >> > >> >> Thanks to all for your help! :) > >> >> > >> >> El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 18:11, gene heskett > >> >> (<ghesk...@shentel.net>) > >> >> escribió: > >> >> > >> >> > On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote: > >> >> > > By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to > >> >> > > the bearings > >> >> > as > >> >> > > a problem. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum > >> >> > > system is working, the spindle tends to spin by itself > >> >> > > because of the vacuum action on the impeller I installed. > >> >> > > This almost never happened yesterday. So, to sum up: I was > >> >> > > able to free turn the spindle by hand at all times, but the > >> >> > > vacuum was not always able to make it spin the impeller and > >> >> > > if it did it wasn't nearly as fast as days before. This is > >> >> > > what makes me suspect about the bearings. Also, almost all > >> >> > > the problems I experienced yesterday were with cutting > >> >> > > forces involved, never with the spindle turning free. Could > >> >> > it > >> >> > > be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because > >> >> > > of a damaged bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for > >> overcurrent? > >> >> > > > >> >> > > What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and > >> >> > > with no load > >> >> > the > >> >> > > VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. This, as > >> >> > > Jon pointed out, recovered on its own a few minutes later. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll let > >> >> > > you know if I > >> >> > can > >> >> > > note anything new. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind and helpful! > >> >> > > :) > >> >> > > > >> >> > > El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia (< > >> >> > ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) > >> >> > > escribió: > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> Hi guys. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my > >> >> > >> spindle and > >> >> > I'm > >> >> > >> a little worried. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle > >> >> > >> was getting really hot and started to slip (you could hear > >> >> > >> the frequency from the inverter was on spot but the rotor > >> >> > >> sometimes wasn't even turning).After > >> >> > a > >> >> > >> few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current > >> >> > >> alarm and the spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle > >> >> > >> cooled down it worked > >> >> > perfectly. > >> >> > >> This never happened before but also I must clarify that > >> >> > >> today the > >> >> > ambient > >> >> > >> temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof > >> >> > >> where the > >> >> > router > >> >> > >> is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something > >> >> > >> to do with the problem. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. > >> >> > >> It has > >> >> > a > >> >> > >> built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for > >> cooling. > >> >> > >> It always gets warm (there are several labels on the > >> >> > >> spindle’s body for caution because of the heat) but nothing like > >> >> > >> today. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm > >> >> > >> having > >> >> here? > >> >> > >> Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? > >> >> > >> I've > >> >> > only > >> >> > >> had the over current alarms when the spindle was too hot. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> I will be really thankful if you can share your thoughts > >> >> > >> about > >> this. > >> >> > > >> >> > I think I'd want to look at the solder joints on the big > >> >> > capacitors in the vfd, keeping in mind that they can hold > >> >> > quite a charge for quite a while when turned off, and that is > >> >> > definitely a lethal voltage. When I said look, I'm looking > >> >> > with an old camera lens for a magnifying glass, checking for > >> >> > hairline cracks in the solder, particularly at the edge of the > >> >> > solder puddle where the copper foil begins, that is a favorite > >> >> > place for some seemingly crazy thermal effects. And you can't > >> >> > just scrape it down to clean copper & bridge it with solder, > >> >> > you must bridge the crack with a piece of suitable gauge > >> >> > copper wire when patching such. And for future crack > >> >> > development protection, a 2% silver bearing solder is much > >> >> > stronger > >> than the usual eutectic mix. > >> >> > > >> >> > Same inspection comments apply to the semi's soldered joints, > >> >> > heat sinks can exert joint breaking forces as they heat. I > >> >> > have a couple of old 16mm projector lenses that get me up > >> >> > close and > >> personal views. > >> >> > An rch looks like a saw log to them. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> Thanks for your help as always! > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> Leonardo. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > > Emc-users mailing list > >> >> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >> > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A > >> >> > > %2F%2< > >> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252 > >> > > >> >> > > Fli%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7Ca716ced2cd8b > >> >> > > 45443 > >> >> > > b1208db1fe039ab%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7 > >> >> > > C6381 > >> >> > > 38820129481532%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL > >> >> > > CJQIj > >> >> > > oiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sda > >> >> > > ta=rj > >> >> > > 6R%2BZb94rpPdzr%2F32kOery9rQ%2Ft47LLFaSdSWYo5h4%3D&reserved= > >> >> > > 0 > >> >> > > sts.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7 > >> >> > > C01%7 > >> >> > > Cto > >> >> > > ddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C7c75dca8021a427b281508db1f821107%7C5 > >> >> > > 75854 > >> >> > > 4c5 > >> >> > > 73f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638138415730530106%7CUnkno > >> >> > > wn%7C > >> >> > > TWF > >> >> > > pbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWw > >> >> > > iLCJX > >> >> > > VCI > >> >> > > 6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s1%2FMmGIe%2BOIgMMj1IgKv6OTsDF > >> >> > > xMuEk > >> >> > > 7ms > >> >> > > t4mMsD%2FGE%3D&reserved=0 > >> >> > > >> >> > Cheers, Gene Heskett. > >> >> > -- > >> >> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: > >> >> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. 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>> > 75d > >> >> > ca8021a427b281508db1f821107%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43 > >> >> > %7C0% > >> >> > 7C0 > >> >> > %7C638138415730530106%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw > >> >> > MDAiL > >> >> > CJQ > >> >> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sda > >> >> > ta=3X tFc > >> >> > wOSBSFmFW5t2k9Bzfka64mLqLY4LnhinVrTrWY%3D&reserved=0> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > Emc-users mailing list > >> >> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >> > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2 > >> >> > F%2Fl%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C5c61d550a093 > >> >> > 493cecaf08db2475a685%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C > >> >> > 0%7C638143859985022697%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA > >> >> > wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C% > >> >> > 7C%7C&sdata=9WxxwxeFG4mKKZhND%2BOxJCfZRJDzNb%2FWQo0ICNHy%2Fmw% > >> >> > 3D&reserved=0 > >> >> > ist%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7Ca716ced2cd8b45 > >> >> > 443b1 > >> >> > 208db1fe039ab%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638 > >> >> > 13882 > >> >> > 0129481532%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjo > >> >> > iV2lu > >> >> > MzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dAuIK > >> >> > CeZqg > >> >> > NHtCWkxG4a%2Bi7p332%2FkPW%2FQNlxo85am7o%3D&reserved=0 > >> >> > s.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01% > >> >> > 7Ctod > >> >> > dz% > >> >> > 40pgrahamdunn.com%7C7c75dca8021a427b281508db1f821107%7C5758544 > >> >> > c573f > >> >> > 47c > >> >> > ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638138415730530106%7CUnknown%7CTWF > >> >> > pbGZs > >> >> > b3d > >> >> > 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6M > >> >> > n0%3D > >> >> > %7C > >> >> > 3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s1%2FMmGIe%2BOIgMMj1IgKv6OTsDFxMuEk7mst4mM > >> >> > sD%2F > >> >> > GE% > >> >> > 3D&reserved=0 > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> 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