On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:02:02 -0400 Michael Jennings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
On Tuesday, 11 October 2005, at 16:59:42 (+0900),
Carsten Haitzler wrote:
my quote for this mail:
"can't we just all get along?"
Some of us can. Those of us who are working as a team. Our problem
is with those working *against* the team.
i dont see anything working against - its in parallel and its in a prototype
dir. is he commiting bad code to ewl to make it worse? how is it working
against?
ok everyone back off on the harsh language and mails. first. ETK is in
PROTO... i repeat - PROTO. PROTO PROTO PROTO
PROTO = PROTOTYPE
So what? Sure, it's in proto for now. But then what?
so is enterminus - has it mvoed from there in months? no. it's stayed. nice
toy. that's it.
proto is a playground for code - a place to play with ideas IN code
that can be shared and looked at and commented on.
And so we're commenting. Yay, the system worked! :-)
secondly - moom isnt such an excited newcomer - he's been around for
a while. has likely contributed to about as much code as you have.
If that's true (which I doubt), then he's been doing it in secret
behind everyone's backs. And while that may not worry you, it sure
worries me.
he hasn't
is this project an ivory tower? or a bazaar?
Going behind everyone's back to undermine an existing project sounds a
lot more like an ivory tower than a bazaar to me.
how is it GOING BEHIND BACKS? its in the open. its in cvs. rtheres a
disagreement - between mimicking gtk's api to make it easy to port or learn, or
doing something different. how do YOU propose to have both teams work on the
same code? really?
i can tell you - we dont have the resources to be an ivory tower. i
sure as hell don't have the time. i barely have the time to deal
with mail (like this one) and somewhere inbetween get some code
done. if we want to "manage" this ivory tower - who is going to
fulltime do that? who? thats going to snarf one DEDICATED* person
for their entire available time - i guarantee it now. and what if
they go away like about 98%** of people who come to contribute for a
week, then vanish do?
If you want to stay away from the ivory tower model and encourage the
bazaar, then why are you supporting (albeit indirectly) vigilantism
and underhanded political posturing? Where would we be if everyone
chose to do everything their own way instead of cooperating and
working together? We'd have about 15 different versions of
everything, and our progress would be severely stunted.
what? i have not been supporting anyone? i am trying to bloody well calm the
flamefest. but people keep trying to stoke up the fires.
if etk stay a play thing for simon and no one else ever wants to use
it - well that is a vote by the "public" as to if they want it or
not (the public being developers). if people jump on it and use it
everywhere suddenly - then well thats a vote for it. if this spurrs
freindly competition then BOTH EWL AND ETK benefit. you may not
rememebr or know of the days when e competed directly with
windowmaker, version for versions we played tit-for-tat feature
games. you know - we BOTH BENEFITTED. benefits are more than just
plain code - ideas, solutions and just swapping compliments and
encouragement are GREAT MOTIVATORS.
You keep going on and on about competition being good and new ideas
being good and all that. You're ignoring the key issue here. If
Simon had said, "Hey guys, I have some new ideas I'd like to try, a
somewhat different approach to an EFL-based widget set. I thought I
might toss it into proto/ and see what people think," that would've
been different.
he did just that - he asked me - i went "put it in proto - see what peolpe
think". man. you guys are seeing reds under every bed. calm down. man i SAID to
put it into proto. i am not going to make email announcments every time someoen
wants to commit a tree of working code. cvs commits does it for me and i'm
alreayd spending too much time on this flamefest.
The reality is that Simon and Hisham have been whining for ages about
"design problems" with EWL that even *they* can't identify. They've
also been badmouthing and undermining other projects, most
vociferously EWL, at every opportunity. Competition is one thing;
stabbing fellow team members in the back is quite another.
i have yeard very little badmouthing. i have heard opinions expressed - which
were not vociferous or undermining.
And by defending their behavior, you're validating it. You're
basically saying to Nathan and Dan, "I don't value the work you've
done enough to defend it. I'm quite happy letting others sneak in the
back way and undermine your work by spreading FUD while you're not
around."
god damn. i give up. i WROTE SPECIFICALLY that i DO VALUe THE WORK. i give up
at this point. you all will believe whatever it is you want to believe and read
whatever you want to read into it. my attempts to calm things and keep neutral
and stop whats becoming a lynching are pointless. i am leaning to their side
because THEY are being attacked. not because i am condoning anything. you are
using awfully strong words for something you dont even know all the facts of.
now if we can all be adult enough to agree to disagree and not turn
this into a schoolyard spat
If you're going to point the Immaturity Finger, I suggest you do so in
the right direction. If Simon's motives are as pure and innocent as
you believe them to be, why all the secrecy? Why the constant
EWL-bashing with no real evidence, discussion, or concensus?
reds under the bed. i repeat. there was no "secrecy" there is no "conspiracy"
theory. simon came to me personally saying that he and nathan disagree on
fundamental ewl issues and hes' going to try something - in my quick
positiveness i said "sure - try". 99.9% of the time anyone ever says they will
do aytning they never come trhough with the goods. i am taking his word at ti
that they disagree. i also saw that ont he mailing lists - simon did start up
some conversation. i am not going to dig it out right now. anyway - he actual -
UNLIKe 99.9% of people, DID SOMETHING - WOW! and crap. it actually worked.
would you believe it. so he asked if he can put it in - i said to put it in
proto and see what peolpe think. i didn thear from him for a long time beyond
him asking edje and evas questions and bringing up some issues that he even
gave me pathes for to improve edje and evas.
if someoen wanted to compet with evas and made a credible
replacement and eventually even made something better - i'd say
"good on you". it woudl either make me go "thank GOD i dont have to
work on evas anymore - time to port" OR, it'd put the fire under my
arse to move evas along and do a lot of thgins i've put off on the
todo list to improve it to compete. i dont believe in
protectionism. i am a big believer of darwinism and competition. if
it werent for that we, as humans, would not exist****
And it wouldn't bother you one bit if that individual or group of
people sat around trashing evas to anyone who'd listen in your own
channel without pointing out any actual flaws or having any code to
back up their arguments?
man - peolpe do that anyway. i've grown a thick skin. as for trashing - i have
yet to see this trashing - i have seen comments that basically say "i dont like
ewl's overall design, look and feel, and i think the api could be
different/better" thats a rough summary - i have not seen any rude or
vociferous language used or any of this supposed bashing. maybe i have become
too cynical, jaded and thick skinned to notice it and what i take as merely
comments you take as bashing.
I think Nathan deserves better than that.
now i repeat - READ THIS TIME. nathan, dan, martin, ben and many others deserve
big kudos for ewl and it is GOOD. they have done a GREAT JOB.
now let me summarise:
1. there is no conspiracy - it wasnt snuck in. it wasnt done behind backs. if
they wanted to do so they could have set up a closed private cvs on sf.net and
done it away from anyones sight. 2. i have not seen any bashing. it may have
happened - maybe multiple times. i have not seen it. 3. as for negative
discussions of ewl i have asked that any ewl discussions happen with authors
present already. 4. can't we all just get along. this flamefest is not doing
anyone any good. 5. pick up, move on. what do we hope to GAIN by continuing
this? the only conclusions are "kick hisham and simon out of the e group" and
frankly - there's way too much flakeyness to go kicking people out who are
active and DOING things. 6. everyone writing code is doing SOMETHING positive.
those not writing code but maintaining websitse, contents, FAQs/docs, helping
users on mailing lists or irc are ALSO doing something positive. 7. i repeat
Nathan, Dan, Martin, Ben, etc. etc. have done VERY GOOD WORK. they should BE
PROUD OF IT. 8. everyone now go to the bar, have a beer, play some pool, relax,
chill... peace love and flowery things.
:)
