On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:02:01 +0930 Simon <si...@simotek.net> said: > Morning, > Firstly thanks for taking the time to put together a well thought out > response i appreciate it. > > > On 07/26/2012 02:00 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:11:23 +0930 Simon Lees <si...@simotek.net> said: > > > >> I’ve been using E17 for almost a year since i tried gnome 3 and realised it > >> couldn’t be configured the way i find most productive and since KDE dropped > >> compiz fusion it also now can’t be setup the same way and because i like my > >> window manager to look good its not the 90’s anymore, Enlightenment became > >> the best choice. > > you're going to hate us. for e18 will move compositing into core. u take > > e';s compositor or you don't take e. that's where things are going... > > :) > I won't and wouldn't for 2 reasons, firstly i was mostly trying to make > the point that i was disappointed when gnome and kde removed compiz > fusion support and didn't replace it with something as customizable or > that didn't have all the features i use. So i went searching and found > e17 which did. I have never tried running e17 with compiz because e17 on > its own has all the features i need (I don't need wobbly windows). > Secondly if i was using compiz i wouldn't care as you are not taking > away functionalitiy and forcing me to use dynamically expanding > workspaces and as a software engineer i understand how this would be > easier to maintain.
ok then. we're happy :) > >> With the upcoming release i have some thoughts and ideas about improving > >> the users experience most of these are as much to stimulate discussion as > >> much as anything else if none of them are implemented i won’t care too > >> much, after all i don’t have the time to implement them. > >> > >> While enlightenment is a great window manager in my opinion the best, it > >> has one or 2 weaknesses mostly due to its nature over the last 12 years, > >> not having a stable release with most people needing to build from source. > >> Moving from supporting a bunch of developers and experienced linux users to > >> the point where anyone picking up Linux for the first time can use E17 is a > >> essential move if E17 is to become one of the major window managers. This > >> essentially means that we should expect that users don’t know how to build > >> from source and we will be relying on distributions to provide everything > >> needed for a good E17 experience. > > yes yes - we know. every distro wants to do its own packaging and has its > > own rules and methods. we can't do it all. this is what distribut6ion > > packagers do. jeffdammeth keeps some nightly build ppa's for ubuntu going > > so the biggest distro is covered. bodhi package e integrated with the os. > > gentoo has ebuilds... its not badly covered - well other than distros > > OFFICIALLY packaging e and we can't make them do it. > I am not suggesting e17 do any of it unless theres simple things that > are requested by distro's. I made this point more to illustrate a > changing userbase as hopefully more distro's do include e17 or at least > have community repositories the userbase will move more and more to > people who have only used package management systems and don't know what > svn is. I use the opensuse community repo's on a couple of machines that > i never intend to develop on because its far easier then maintaining a > script to update from svn. distros want releases. even with them packages lag often weeks, months or years behind... or don't exist at all. :) as such tho a single efl tree (as planned) will cut down work for everyone involved, packagers too. > >> Being someone who is not a packager and has no experience doing anything > >> like it i think moving to a single build tree and efl lib is a great start. > >> There are 2 other areas that i can see as issues the first being > >> applications when i am building with easy e17 i struggle to work out what’s > >> a application what’s stable and what’s worth building maybe there needs to > > easy-e17 includes a lot of stuff that is half-done and not stable. so that's > > why. > Yeah i thought i saw a list of applications and a description of what > they did somewhere on the site the other week but i can't see it > anywhere atm so either im average at looking or its well hidden, this is > the sort of thing i was meaning when i was talking about helping > distributors a simple list of applications with a brief description of > what they do so this info can be copied and pasted into packages. really if we release tarballs then its usable. if we don't - it's probably still being hacked on and may never make it out the door. if its in svn it's a free-for all as to if its stable/usable. some things will be better than others. :) > >> be a stable and development directory for applications in svn instead of > >> having them all in the root directory. Similarly with E-MODULES-EXTRA the > >> poll a couple of weeks back showed that a lot of us use at least a few > >> modules each but if the common ones like taskbar, cpu, net, comp scale > >> don’t get moved into E17 and are left as extras they will risk being left > >> out by some distro’s that only want stable packages or can’t be bothered > > the modules form extras that are worth it have been moved to core. others > > are either waiting on something or will never move. comp-scale for example > > is waiting for compositing to go into core. my advice is don't use anything > > from e-modules-extras. if you choose to ignore that advice then you accept > > the consequences of bugs and problems. one of these days i'll come up with > > some kind of signature thing for modules so core modules are > > "approved/signed" and unapproved modules will "taint" your e and we'll be > > asking for e's taint logs if u come asking about bugs/problems. :) > > > >> figuring out what is worth packaging. Again i’d suggest a directory for > >> stable modules and one for development modules so that distributions can > >> easily find and produce 1 package of extra modules. Maybe it could even > > e-modules-extra *IS* development modules. :) > That's good for clarification i never quite worked that out as there is > also a proto directory i'm guessing e-modules-extra is the equivalent > for modules then? Is there a procedure for moving modules from > e-modules-extra into e itself for example 2 of the modules i use are procedure is if a core dev thinks the module is useful in general and isnt such a mess that it needs a total rewrite. > taskbar and forecast, the todo for taskbar says that it is doesn't have core already has tasks - use that. taskbar is obsolete now. it was copied from taskbar and "improved/fixed" (an almost rewrite). forcasts - no plan to touch it as well - we have a lot to do really. :) > anything left to do and forecast has no todo at all. It would be helpful e-modules-extra is more a dumping ground for modules people work or worked on at some point - they may not have touched them for years. they may be unmaintained and dead. they may be alive and kicking. either way they are not "gold standard". :) todo means nothing there. so dont go by that. > if each of the modules had in there todo what is required for them to be > added into e17 so that someone like me with a spare night a week or few > hours on the weekend can get them to the point where there ready to be > included in the main e17. I guess though on the other hand i could have > just asked in the mailing list earlier. > Will e-modules-extra be tagged along with e17 to make it easier to build > and use these modules with a released version without having to remember > the svn revision for the last release? no - e-modules-extra will ultimately go into a separate repository to wallow and "die" if need be. anything worth using may get salvaged from it over time, on an as-needed basis. > >> have a single build script as well as individual ones even a script that > >> can be run that will call the individual configures makes and installs. > >> >From a users point of view i don’t want to install 1 package for each > >> module i use its just a waste of time when you can unload them and they > >> don’t use resources anyway. I do currently use daily packages on most of my > >> machines and i imagine i would swap them to stable build at least until > >> there’s a feature added that i want. On these machines i would also prefer > >> to run E17 just from a package manager because i know the packages will be > >> there and let’s face it its easier. > >> > >> There's 1 or 2 things that i’d also like to suggest in terms of features. I > >> like the way that when you first load E17 and have no profile you go > >> through a series of steps to setup your profile. I am aware that there > >> shouldn’t be too many things in this configuration because we don’t want to > >> overwhelm the users but i have suggestions for one or two more additions > >> mostly because i’m a little selfish and it would get E17 configured the way > >> i like it almost straight away but i’m guessing it will also help anyone > >> coming from Gnome 2/Compiz fusion and Windows. > >> > >> * The first isn’t so much a request for a extra feature in this list but > >> somewhere in the settings panel to reset your profile and go through the > >> config from scratch. I know from experience it took me 2 or 3 times to go > >> through before i figured everything out. It would be nice to be able to > >> load and save (import/export) profiles as well. As well as parts of > >> profiles like keybindings (I normally keep them the same across machines at > >> least and they are fiddlyier and more time consuming to set up but that > >> part's not a biggy. > > rm -rf ~/.e/e/config and log in again. :) but ok - we can make a button for > > it... :) > I know that one it's just i would like to think that oneday Linux will > become easy enough to use that users will never need to touch hidden > directories in there home drive :) i added a "scratch" button now to the profiles config dialog. hit that when u are feeling frisky. :) > >> * The next is a request that in the initial config add a dialog to select > >> the number of workspaces / virtual desktops and if there is more then 1 row > >> selected replace the current Ctrl + Alt + Up / Down with move workspace up > >> and down. It would be also nice if Ctrl + Shift + Alt + Arrow key was bound > >> to move window in the arrow direction as this is what compiz fusion had. > >> The binding for Ctrl + Shift + Alt + Left/Right could be added anyway as > >> there is no bindings on them currently. > > ummm i'm on the bandwagon of "we give u 4 desktop by default.. why do we > > need to ask you for this?". is there a good reason to ADD another question. > > the pages in wizard are there because they had good reasons, but this one > > i'm failing to see the "good reason" other than a personal preference for > > you. :) right click pager and select "virtual desktop settings" and a quick > > slide+hit ok will adjust the desktop count easily. most non-techie users > > will be happy with 4 desktops. techies are happy to explore to find the > > settings if they need more (or less). :) as for bindings - thats tricky to > > change by default. ctrl+alt +left right are next/prev desktop ALSO > > row-by-row. so when it gets to the end of a row if its 4x4 desktops, it > > goes to the next row down. if u want literal geometrical desktop shifting > > alt+shift+arrow keys are bound to go "in that direction" literally > > desktop-wise. :) ctl+alt+up/down have been bound in e ever since like.. dr > > 0.4 or whenever i added key control to raise/lower a window... so thats > > since like 1997... :) > I must say having spent a bit of time in the keybindings i have never > noticed the Alt+Shift+Arrow bindings, ill start using them instead i was > just used to Ctr+Alt from my gnome days. It would be nice if > Ctrl+Shit+Alt up and down could be bound to move window up and down like 3 modifiers at once... thats a little.. excessive. > left and right last time i checked they weren’t by default. With this i well because ctrl+alt+up/down arrow have been there like... since 1997 or whatever :) 1 modifier less. :) > wouldn't think the start up screen is necessary. I forgot that the pager > was on the shelf by default i normally remove it it's not that useful in > a 3x3 workspace config on a shelf. > > > >> *Another is shelf config maybe its default position (Top/Bottom), but more > >> critically whether the contents contain the current defaults, or my > >> proposed alternative would be to have a full width shelf with start on the > >> left (Yes i know you can get the main menu from clicking the desktop and i > >> never use it because i use the everything launcher, but anyone else who > >> ever uses my computer uses it because its recognisable enough as its used > >> by several major window managers, after that id have the taskbar then > >> systray battery etc. This would depend on these modules being easily > >> available as mentioned above. > > the default is a shelf not filling screen with start menu on left too. as > > such not filling the widget is a good thing and kind of gives e a > > uniqueness that i like and want to keep. you CAN configure it to be > > different, but again - i see no good value to make this a wizard question > > explicitly. if u want people on your box to have this as an option by > > default... add a new profile! profiles can be extended until the cows come > > home. make a "i'm a windows xp refugee" profile and make it blue+red+green > > +yellow with a sky+hill bg and all the setup as u want... :) i sure as hell > > dont think it's going to be shipped form upstream as an option though.. but > > you can add it - as can distros. :) > Thats aright i can live with that. Interestingly enough its not just win > xp windows is dropping it after all for win 8, kde, razor-qt, and > cinnamon all use that format so i thought if there was going to be a > second profile option that configuration may be worth it as it has > become a default for many systems. I thought there was a patent on using > rolling hills and a blue sky as a desktop background so we better not > use that :) we used to have 2 more profiles - netbook and minimalist. one of these had a shelf spanning the screen. it just is too much work to maintain all the profiles in parallel when we add config etc. so i removed them as it just is too much work. at least at this stage and we have better things to do. > > > >> * Animations are another thing i’d suggest adding here partly because in a > >> few reviews i have read people have complained about them being excessive, > >> I saw some changes to the default the other day but i haven’t reloaded my > >> profile to see what change this will make, personally i struggle to use > >> anything more then still. The second reason is currently there hidden > >> pretty well in Composite->Effects if i was a new user i’d struggle to find > >> them here. > > time that u go thru the wizard again as a new user. :) > Yep its much better. > > > >> I was going to say something about themes here but i just covered it in the > >> email on that topic > > default theme for elementary and e17 are pretty nasty in a lot of areas. > > they have become a mess over time and need a major revamp. > I've noticed alot of comments along this line on the mailing list over > the last week. > >> The last and possibly most controversial proposal i have is bringing back > >> the forum I know there was one in the past and it was removed because it > >> wasn’t used and now the mailing lists and IRC are used. From the point of > >> view of someone who is 25 and didn’t really start using Linux until i got > >> to University it was only a few years back i started using IRC (I probably > >> should start using it more again) and only in the last 1 or 2 years i > >> started paying attention to mailing lists. So my feelings are that nowadays > >> a lot of the Linux community does not know to use both our main forms of > >> contact. We are already giving these new users that may be trying E17 a > >> small learning curve in terms of trying a new window manager but if they > >> struggle with this to get help currently they are faced with the much > >> greater learning curve of trying to get help on IRC or a mailing list. Also > >> when a solution is provided on IRC if someone joins 2 hrs later with the > >> same question it has to be answered again, and yes mailing lists don’t have > >> this problem but if the community grows which i hope it does and there > >> become more users with more questions forums scale much better and are much > >> easier to navigate then mailing lists. The forum could also be set up to > >> provide a rss feed or mail digest so that people who have been working or > >> following the project for a long time don’t need to change their behavior > >> other than subscribing to another list or rss feed. > > history will repeat itself. forums will become a spamfest. existing devs > > will never participate. it will just become a forum for users to bitch at > > eachother and complain about spam. unless forums integrate with mailing > > lists at a minimum it's pointless. when i mean integrate it has to go BOTH > > ways. mail TO the form mail address and it becomes post. all posts to the > > form (not from an email) get emailed to a mailing list. :) in fact what u > > want is just a webgui that is a front-end to the mailing lists we have that > > basically provide "limited" "email addresses" for users on the web forum > > (can only mail to/from mailing list). i dont know if something like that > > exists, but frankly our website doesnt have enough admins and work on it > > as-is to worry about such a forum thing. :) > There's probably not enough users for it yet but my idea is more along > the lines of a user forum for users to ask questions about using e17, > how do i find the effects settings, is it possible to do this etc.. > Issues for developers shoud go into the bug tracker if there bugs and > IRC or the mailing lists for development questions developers are > normally happy enough using these forms of communication but again until > there's more users i guess there's not a whole lot of point. as i said - unless it integrates with email lists... it isnt useful. we have enlightenment-users vs enlightenment-devel for this kind of split you mention already. :) > >> Again these are just my thoughts and ideas about ways the community and E17 > >> can improve for new members if you disagree i won’t take it personally this > >> is mostly just a list of things that i thought may be worth discussing > >> before a release and so i’m just trying to provoke some discussion on > >> topics that i think are worth it. If they’ve been discussed on IRC recently > >> i’m sorry the firewall at work doesn’t allow IRC and kicks freenode webchat > >> every couple of hours so it > > just to let you know that i pay attention... i read this mail. i've digested > > what you said a bit and for now have my input in reply as here, but all > > topics are open for discussion at all times. :) > You and alot of the team do quite well at this far better then alot of > projects and i think this makes the project more useful to the general > public as you end up with a product that is useful to its userbase > rather then one that is useful for a few developers or that is what > developers think users want but misses the mark by a long shot. sure - and we'll mess up at times, and often just make features for ourselves. no one's perfect. but we'll listen at least and try incorporate what we can, but we may also disagree. :) restart from scratch button is in - suggestion taken. :) > >> In terms of the ideas i have that relate to code if no one seriously > >> objects to them one day i may get around to implementing them unfortunately > >> due to my current personal situation that's not likely before the end of > >> the year. > >> > >> Cheers to you all again for your fine work i appreciate it every day > >> because you make my job easier by providing me with a sensible environment > >> to work in and if you read the whole lot well done it ended up being longer > >> than i intended. > >> > >> Simon > >> > >> http://simotek.net/tech > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Live Security Virtual Conference > >> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > >> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > >> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > >> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> enlightenment-devel mailing list > >> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > >> > Again cheers for takingthe time to read this and put together a well > thought out response. > Simon > > http://simotek.net/tech > > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
