On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 09:07:27 +0200 Davide Andreoli <d...@gurumeditation.it> said:
> 2017-07-01 4:28 GMT+02:00 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>: > > > On Fri, 30 Jun 2017 16:22:03 +0200 Davide Andreoli <d...@gurumeditation.it > > > > > said: > > > > > 2017-06-30 1:37 GMT+02:00 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>: > > > > > > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2017 11:13:51 +0000 Andrew Williams < > > a...@andywilliams.me> > > > > said: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Just to wrap this thread up following EDD: > > > > > > > > > > * no-one is proposing that we remove the ability to mark up text > > through > > > > > the markup format mechanism, it is a great feature > > > > > * we cannot make changes to this legacy API as apps depend on it or > > have > > > > > adapted to it > > > > > > > > > > * the new textblock API, which is currently plain text only is being > > > > > extended with a solid markup API > > > > > * The existing markup format will be supported through > > _markup_text_set > > > > or > > > > > similar API leaving text_set/get to be plain text only > > > > > > > > > > It was beileved that this would satisfy all requirements whilst > > removing > > > > > any confusion about the nature of text encoding when using plain > > text. > > > > > This allows us to take a path-of-least-surprise approach for the new > > Eo > > > > > based text APIs > > > > > > > > you have to have a markup version of everything. set, append, prepend, > > > > insert, > > > > replace etc. > > > > > > > > > > or something like "markup_mode_enabled" that you can set on the widget to > > > enable/disable markup insert of text. > > > > actually this would be worse. any code calling an api to get or manipulate > > text > > needs to also always query mode first (maybe change it, then change it > > back)... > > so now instead of > > > > text_set(obj, "Blah"); > > > > you have > > > > prev_mode = text_mode_get(obj); > > text_mode_set(obj, PLAIN); > > text_set(obj, "Blah"); > > text_mode_set(obj, prev_mode); > > > > we could make it a push and pop... just to cut this down so it goes from 4 > > ro 3 > > lines... but still./.. not great (and the implementation actually needs to > > keep > > a real stack then not a counter). > > > > I was supposing the developer to set the mode right after object creation > and then > stay with that, ex: you could do that but the above would still be needed because let's say you use a helper api... or some other part of efl has to... do copy & paste and insert text. what mode is it in? every api needs to handle all possible modes OR always force the mode it wants then go back to where it was. the developer who created the widget in their code is not always the only piece of code messing with the text content. > lb = elm_label_add(...) > elm_text_mode_set(lb, MARKUP) > > and then always use markup in your code for that widget, > Isn't this the 99% of the usage case? > > > > > > not knowing how your text is interpreted at all is very bad. you need to > > know. > > if there is only one way then there is no problem. if we were going to have > > lots of text modes (plain, markup, full html, rtf, ...) then maybe we'd > > have to > > live with the above mode thing as the api's would multiply like crazy... > > the > > alternative is we must pass format every time WITH the text > > > > text_set(obj, PLAIN, "Blah"); > > > > everyone is probably going to hate this too. we could make use of > > "non-visible" > > ascii chars as format markers like magic numbers for file formats... > > > > #define PLAIN "" > > #define MARKUP "\001\001" > > #define HTML "\001\002" > > #define RTF "\001\003" > > > > etc. and we literally require you decode the header... (many values of the > > first 32 ascii values other than \000 could be used for this as they can > > never > > be visibly displayed or mapped to a glyph and make zero sense to use so we > > can > > use them as control chars like \n, \t and \r (\012, \011 \015) are format > > control chars and not directly mappable to a visible glyph on their own). > > so > > now you do: > > > > text_set(obj, "Blah"); > > text_set(obj, MARKUP"<b>Blah</b>"); > > > > etc. but people will probably dislike this too... no matter how you slice > > or > > dice this, people will hate something. so make take is, you either do plain > > text and give up on markup entirely other than having to use a whole bunch > > of > > metadata api's to apply it (that's going to be **FUN** on inserts ... - > > not), > > make wrappers that parse markup for you then do these (which means markup > > versions of every query, set, insert, append etc.) and the implementation > > is > > going to be "fun" (what is a cursor pos? a char pos #, a utf8 byte value > > offset? enjoy the figuring out of this as its likely going to be a visible > > glyph/char pos) ... > > > > or you just bite the bullet and say "it's all markup. DEAL WITH IT" (and > > provide some converters). only people i have heard complain are efl people > > and > > only now after many many many years who oddly didn't even read our own > > docs and > > find out it's markup... everyone else seems to be fine with it and expects > > markup... > > > > anecdotal statistics tells me that removing the "markup by default" is > > going to > > be a big mistake... > > > > > > > Thanks everyone for the discussion :) > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 at 05:39 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 21:55:14 +0200 Davide Andreoli < > > > > d...@gurumeditation.it > > > > > > > > > > > > > said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2017-06-19 13:36 GMT+02:00 Daniel Hirt <hirt.da...@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Andrew Williams < > > > > > > a...@andywilliams.me> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Looking at the tests you point me at - selection (and the > > past) > > > > is a > > > > > > > plain > > > > > > > >> text copy with the markup stripped - exactly what I would > > expect > > > > for > > > > > > > >> text_get - but the current content transformed with the helper > > > > will > > > > > > not > > > > > > > get > > > > > > > >> you there - there is no built in interpretation of formatting > > - > > > > just > > > > > > > >> rendered understands it. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > "elm_entry_selection_get" returns the text in markup format. > > The > > > > test > > > > > > > prints > > > > > > > > both types one after another (markup followed by plaintext) > > using > > > > > > > > "elm_entry_markup_to_utf8". > > > > > > > > It is essential for copy & paste of markup text between two > > entry > > > > > > clients, > > > > > > > > so the pasted formatting is kept. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Overall the implementation feels wrong - supporting markup is > > > > great > > > > > > but > > > > > > > >> returning it inline in text_get feels like we are imposing > > > > internal > > > > > > > choices > > > > > > > >> on other devs. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I note that the code considers format but only when > > interacting > > > > with > > > > > > > files > > > > > > > >> - so I can have plain text files but not plain text input. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Right, it's a feature so you can load plain files. You specify > > the > > > > > > format > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > want to load (plaintext or markup). But, after the file is > > loaded, > > > > it's > > > > > > > > discarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's important to point out that because there's an actual > > > > > > representation > > > > > > > > (markup), it's costly to store both plaintext and markup > > content > > > > in the > > > > > > > > object. > > > > > > > > Asking you to convert using "markup_to_utf8" is > > understandable, as > > > > it > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > we would actually do internally if we were to add API to get > > the > > > > text > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > plaintext. It's only one function call away, and it's easier > > than > > > > just > > > > > > add > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > API to the widget. No need for a new function if there's a way > > to > > > > do > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > already. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Lastly the documentation clearly discussed markup capability > > but > > > > it > > > > > > > *never* > > > > > > > >> discusses encoding and there is no explicit mention that your > > text > > > > > > will > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > >> transformed after text_set. If it were then it should be > > > > symmetrically > > > > > > > >> transformed back on text_get - path of least surprise. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Actually, it is not transformed on "text_set". You are > > expected to > > > > > > enter a > > > > > > > > markup-compatible text. Otherwise you will have the mentioned > > > > special > > > > > > > > characters (like "<") misinterpreted as markup. You can try > > with > > > > > > > > "elm_object_text_set" on an entry widget. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't quite understand why we would build formatting in as > > > > > > mandatory, > > > > > > > >> functionality is great but it should be possible to turn it > > off. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I agree that people complain when markup is not supported in a > > > > widget > > > > > > but > > > > > > > >> that is the expectation we have set - consistency is very > > > > important > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > >> and I think we don't have it in this regard. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Additionally I think the markup_to_utf8 methods are peculiarly > > > > named - > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > >> do no character encoding so the usage of utf8 is probably > > > > incorrect... > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They're correct. UTF-8 is the standard plaintext encoding. We > > > > support > > > > > > > UTF-8, > > > > > > > > and provide converters for your convenience. You probably won't > > > > need > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > most > > > > > > > > of the time. > > > > > > > > Your plaintext is always "encoded", but you probably won't > > notice > > > > that > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > it's backward-compatible with US ASCII (1-byte per character). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Andrew > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Lastly, I would like to mention "Efl.Ui.Text" - this new > > widget is > > > > a > > > > > > part > > > > > > > > of a > > > > > > > > rework of the Textblock object. It's in BETA stage. > > > > > > > > It does what you require: all text input is expected to be > > > > plaintext. > > > > > > > > There's no > > > > > > > > "markup" logic in it. Instead, you format your text by setting > > > > ranges > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > calling > > > > > > > > functions to apply formatting. Again, markup does not exist in > > this > > > > > > > object, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? no more markup support? This is really, really sad to hear > > :( > > > > > > > > > > > > i've ben trying to tell people that markup is LESS bad than no > > markup > > > > (or > > > > > > having to do it via api calls)... but the people giving the > > opinions on > > > > > > this > > > > > > aren't writing the apps. > > > > > > > > > > > > maybe you c an convince them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm using markup everywhere in my media center and I'm really > > happy > > > > with > > > > > > > it's usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > too bad. plain text for you unless you call lots of api calls to > > > > insert it > > > > > > tag > > > > > > by tag. have fun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please think carefully at my use case: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.enlightenment.org/ss/e-594d67c3ee4752.10999768.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look at the the textblock in the lower-right corner, > > > > > > > the code to set the text is something like this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > text = sprintf("<title>%s</> <small>%s</small><br>" > > > > > > > "<small><name>%s</> %s <name>/ %s %s</><br>" > > > > > > > "<views>%s %s</> <name>/</> " > > > > > > > "<likes>%s %s</> <name>/</> " > > > > > > > "<comments>%s %s</></small><br>%s", > > > > > > > video.name, video.duration, > > > > > > > _('user'), video.user, > > > > > > > _('uploaded'), relative_date(video.created_time), > > > > > > > views, ngettext('view', 'views', views), > > > > > > > likes, ngettext('like', 'likes', likes), > > > > > > > comments, ngettext('comment', 'comments', comments), > > > > > > > video.description) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ..thats it, and I have those beautiful (theme-able!) formatted > > text. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now try to think at the code needed to do the same with the "new" > > > > API !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another insurmountable problem of the API approach: the text in > > my > > > > > > example > > > > > > > comes from plugins (the vimeo plugin in this case) that are > > separate > > > > > > > processes > > > > > > > from the core mediacenter, plugins just fetch datas from the net > > and > > > > pass > > > > > > > them back to the core. This means that the plugins do not have > > > > access to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > textblock API. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some more examples: > > > > > > > https://github.com/DaveMDS/epymc/wiki/Screenshots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand the initial issue Andrew was speaking in this > > thread > > > > > > > (text_get > > > > > > > is difficult to use). And I agree that the default behavior > > should be > > > > > > plain > > > > > > > text set/get, > > > > > > > BUT: we really need to implement something like: > > text_markup_set(...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be more clear: loosing the markup ability (in textblock, > > buttons, > > > > and > > > > > > > any other widget) is a shame, we are loosing IMO the most > > powerful > > > > and > > > > > > > useful > > > > > > > feature of textblock in efl. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can be re-added as a module in later stages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, please, please re-added it now, otherwise I will not be > > able > > > > to > > > > > > > port my > > > > > > > applications to the new API, until a "later stage" will > > eventually > > > > occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can check its current state in "efl ui text" test in > > > > > > elementary_test. > > > > > > > > Feedback > > > > > > > > will be very much appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope this answers a few of your questions. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Danny (herdsman) Hirt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > > > > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment- > > devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > > > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > > > -------------- > > > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > http://andywilliams.me > > > > > http://ajwillia.ms > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------ > > > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > -------------- > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------ > > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------ > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > _______________________________________________ > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! 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