Hello Lonnie Yes I remember our e-meeting... The pheromone example applies of course, in fact is much better than the hormone I gave, although goes to the same point, which to me is the message itself. The pheromone, or the hormone are not the message whatsoever, they "carry", they are the physical transport, the car, the bus, the shoe, flesh, anything, whatever. And you said it well, to all irrelevant parties that will mean nothing.
Why any other message should be any different, If someone writes/ speaks to me in Chinese I will be unable to read it. Does this mean that I cannot understand the message? Of course not, I cannot understand the transport. So the most important point here is to get that that "transport" is not the "message". Where is the message then... The message can only be absent, because it will never consists of its "transport" Message here equals meaning, information, or if you want the part we all understand regardless if it is carried by binary, hexadecimal, hormone, Chinese or Braille. Back to math all these meanings above I want to think as arithmetic, and the transport part, these are the "languages", as geometry Finally the hypothesis is, respectively Math and Language base on Geometry and.... Geometry as well I'm sorry I did not check your posts over the net, I will do that (the I part I still distrust, but I'm involved as well, so I (again) cannot claim anything different, 'I' is not a good reference no matter if it is yours or mine, I never liked another "I" lover, Descartes ) regards Carlos On May 24, 12:53 pm, Lonnie Clay <claylon...@comcast.net> wrote: > Hiya einseele! To carry your hormone analogy a bit further, Mother Nature > causes Pheromones to be emitted from scent glands to be decoded by nostrils > of (for example) potential mates or to warn off enemy species of approaching > danger. When scented these encoded molecules have meaning to one's own > species, related species, and associated predator or prey species which have > evolved in the same habitat as the species emitting a scent. To all others > the scent is inconsequential, random noise as it were. To carry the physical > analogy back into the world of abstraction where we are communicating in > English, cryptography as applied to text messages becomes relevant. > > Last year you and I had a bit of a disagreement which you explained as a > distaste which you felt regarding my heavy usage of the word "I". I > suggested that you should do your own thing and grant me the privilege of > doing mine. You agreed. The question arises in my mind of whether you have > been following my posts on the internet by tracking "Lonnie Courtney Clay" > using Google notifications. If not then disregard my question and consider > reading the posts sorted by date from Friday the 20th until today on Google > groups if your interest is piqued. My question is this einseele : Do you > recoil from a stench of abomination, or strain towards a whiff of paradise > from reading my recent posts? I value your opinion! > > Lonnie Courtney Clay > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, May 24, 2011 6:48:43 AM UTC-7, einseele wrote: > > > Hello Neil > > > I was missing your writings here, I believe Sam as well. > > > Detectives look into special traces and the basic idea is that they > > base their findings in a sort of distrust. > > They need somehow to distrust the sorrounding world. Otherwise they > > would not get the deepness needed to undercover the crime. Your inner > > cop most surely has a lot to tell us. > > > Scientist I believe do the same with their stuff, also researchers, > > psychologists, lawyers (God save us all), writers, actors, my uncle > > Rita, everybody. So... > > > Al this is to try a point about reading, which is not as naif as it > > looks. > > > The question is about Nature (we have to give her a name), when > > certain level of certain hormone is reached, the system decides to > > trigger certain action. That action has nothing to do with the hormone > > itself, which is the "chemical messenger". There is a message, so > > something is needed to "read" it. > > And the text of that message, to me of course, can only be regarded as > > a geometry question. Actually I dont believe there is a reader. > > "Nature" is our own abstraction. > > But then, why should be us any different. Same applies to DNA, and > > Alchemy btw > > > The organ, the hormone and the system need to agree on the message, > > and I can only imagine matching perfect "forms", no room for ideal/ > > concrete differences here. Perfect in this sense needs to be real. > > (what a mess) > > > Carlos > > > On May 22, 8:53 pm, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I can never envisage complex shapes and geometry. I can get into > > > approximation (like approximating the area of a circle with > > > triangles). When I see an argument I don't generally find myself > > > going to summary; it always seems to expand (though I do 'summarise' a > > > lot to 'bolloxs' or 'taken as already read'). The cop left in me > > > still separates 'evidence' from 'piss and wind'. A few years back, > > > watching news of the Soham killings (of two young girls), I found > > > myself 'alarmed' when the killer's girlfriend came on. She seemed > > > just a concerned person who had known the kids at first, but then I > > > started to feel something wrong (the killer, Huntley was not known > > > then). What I felt was that she was doing was using her work as a > > > teaching assistant with the girls to impress 'me' that she had cared > > > so much about them. To the cop in me, this was 'sign' of psychopath > > > behaviour - I can explain why, but it would take ages. The actual > > > investigation was a total cock-up to that time, before some serious > > > detectives moved in. This was very much my reaction before hindsight. > > > > Now, I could be telling this story now to impress on my 'cop > > > ability'. Even saying this could just be some sort of 'deferral > > > ploy'. We are complex shits at times! I was right, but this isn't > > > the point either. The occasion of a moment like this is hugely > > > complex. And it's not just an occasion of hunch, or even recognition > > > of micro-expressions or whatever. Or about playing detective. > > > > 'Sam's video' above strikes a chord in me. Nearly all I hear on > > > climate problems has nothing to do with them - it's mostly just media > > > dorkism. Our 'arguments' need to be understood in terms of what they > > > 'may really address'. Years ago, I bought an academic book called > > > 'Audiences' hoping it would 'address' this - it didn't and was just > > > dross. > > > > Hard to get anywhere near what I mean at the moment. I like Francis > > > Bacon's 'Idols'. Try reading him - it's bloody awful and I can barely > > > cope. There are around 11 idols to be found over 4 texts - and 4 of > > > the Idols are really significant. I find something like them in > > > Berkeley and Wittgenstein. Most of all this writing may as well be > > > dark energy. > > > > Now, I'm not talking about being able to 'read sign' about character > > > or truth like every fuckwit and her dog pretend they can just before > > > the bastard shafts them or as they become Captain Hindsight explaining > > > how they knew. It's not psychology. > > > > This won't help directly either. What is the geometry of argument? > > > How does it form hubs? As argument algorithms produce hubs of control > > > can we identify them? Blather I know, yet we now have an algorithm > > > that can work out control in complex systems - potentially ending > > > 'economics'. > > > >http://barabasilab.neu.edu/projects/controllability/isabout such an > > > algorithm - reported in Nature May 12th 2011 (there's a google gadget > > > for Nature). > > > > I'm not making linear sense - yet we could see my reaction to the > > > killer's munter as a node address, Bacon's Idols as nodes - and maybe > > > on to my interests about nodes of fear and other matters 'hidden' > > > hyper-addressed in argument. From psychology to lingustic forms > > > revealed? > > > > On May 22, 5:38 am, Sam Carana <sam.c...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > Cheers! > > > > Sam Carana > > > > > On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 1:28 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Excellent Sam! > > > > > > On May 21, 12:55 am, Sam Carana <sam.c...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> Good to hear from you too, Carlos, an excellent post! > > > > > >> I always like to explore similarities and differences between maths > > > > >> and language. I love your idea of form (geometry) as a more likely > > > > >> basis of maths than arithmetic. > > > > > >> However, let's be careful not to fall into Socrates/Plato type of > > > > >> assumptions of native knowledge. The square of the hypotenuse might > > > > >> equal the sum of the squares of the other two sides of a > > right-angled > > > > >> triangle, but that only works within a context that is artificial in > > > > > >> the first place. After all, in nature something may have a certain > > > > >> length at a given moment, but the next moment the temperature will > > be > > > > >> different, resulting in expansion or contraction of the material on > > > > >> which the triangle was drawn, etc. Yes, such expansion may take > > place > > > > >> over the entire triangle, but not exactly the same in each part. > > > > > >> Anyway, my point is that scientific analysis may, by taking > > something > > > > >> in isolation, take things out of context. > > > > > >> Let me get back to language, to show what I mean. I sometimes think > > > > >> that the meaning words is formed more through relations in the > > brain, > > > > >> rather than that meaning existed inherent in the word. Observations > > > > >> are stored in our brain and the links between observations, as > > stored > > > > >> in our mind, determine their meaning, rather than that meaning was > > > > >> inherent in words. > > > > > >> Applying that idea to maths, the value of a number would be > > determined > > > > >> by its place within a sequence of numbers, i.e. its value being > > > > >> relative to the other numbers, allowing one to zoom in and out, > > > > >> magnifying the sequence, while remaining the relationship between > > > > >> numbers. > > > > > >> Again, let me go back to language, to show what I mean. Language is > > > > >> often seen as based in words that are part of verbal language > > (audio). > > > > >> However, as you say, it makes sense to use form (video) as the basis > > > > > >> of meaning. Form is part of our visual perception. We recognize > > things > > > > >> visually, because their form remains the same, as we approach it > > (zoom > > > > >> in and out). > > > > > >> Thus, it makes sense to argue that much of the meaning of words is > > > > >> founded in forms, as part of visual perception, even though many > > > > >> linguists have traditionally regarded most languages to be more > > > > >> audio-based. Indeed, for centuries teachers have used the institute > > of > > > > >> school to remove many visual parts of language (such as gestures and > > > > > >> body-language), as if only the audio was important, then further > > > > >> stripping language even of intonation and other life, to end up with > > > > > >> written words, as if words in isolation constituted the perfection > > of > > > > >> language. As a result, children all > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Epistemology" group. 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