http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_%28finance%29 I basically get the notion of "selling short"......but, there too, there is a paper trail (identity of scam and scammers). Ultimately, it gets to a question of an outside "third party" being asked to pay the difference.....that's the scam....(you know that as well as [better] than I).....If "some" folks care to gamble... they should do it with their own money.... or shares....and pay their own difference... or be "punished" if they renege....I mean, that's the "ideal" form of the deal, isn't it?.... Banks or money reservoirs should be regulated to that effect....Where's the "flaw" in the "ideal", I ask you? On Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:17:49 AM UTC-4, nominal9 wrote: > > I like your scam scenario explanation.... it sounds "verisimilar" (one of > those big words I like to show off with every now and then... heck, if I > had to learn it, I might as well use it, right?). > > You know that I am "specific naive" when it comes to financial terms and > "instruments"... but can you explain to me why it is that the actual > "thieves" and scammers get (identity) lost in the "shell game", doesn't > each piece of debt paper or transaction (is supposed to) have a name on it? > > On Wednesday, April 3, 2013 5:20:17 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >> >> That's about the half of it Nom. We might know more about how Cyprus >> was looted by the end of next week and who is really paying. I >> predict the hot money will turn out to have gone in the months before, >> the take over of Cyprus banks in Greece (done in all haste preventing >> due diligence before the crash and leaving bad Greek debt in Cyprus) >> may prove to have been an unload of RHD by foreign banks. British >> banks have unloaded half their exposure to Greece in the last three >> years - raising questions about who bought the magic beans and at what >> price (if they had to sell low - I guess hey must as you and I would >> have been smart enough not to buy the RHD - then where are the write- >> offs) and whether any investment packages they were in were sold >> honestly. I'm inclined to think Cyprus is no accident and the >> banksters may be able to manipulate such crashes. Whilst w wouldn't >> buy the magic beans from each other (scared of giants as we are), I >> suspect the deal runs more like this: >> >> Neil: Nom - I have an offer you can't refuse. >> Nom. Screw you limey. >> Neil. Peace brother, we'll both make a killing. Switch to the >> scambler (no typo) phone. Buy as much eu periphery rocking horse shit >> as you can find. You should get it at 10 cents on the dollar. I'll >> give you 80 for it all. >> Nom. Good deal for me, what's your cut? >> Neil. We'll go 50:50 on the net after we pay off Pedro. >> Nom. What's Pedro got to do with this? >> Neil. He runs the Spanish bank buying the rocking horse shit. When >> Spain goes down the toilet holding all the losses he'll throw in the >> incompetence joker while we sort him with a new identity and a sack of >> cash to soothe his conscience over the small matter of bankrupting his >> fellow countrymen. >> Nom. I love these crimes where no one gets hurt. How much will the EU >> and depositor bail in be on this one? >> Neil. $250 billion. We'll go short on Spain. Italy, Luxembourg and >> the Netherlands to pick up on the death-throes of the EU >> >> The actual fraud network will be a bit more complex and our secret >> services will be involved. Do you know where Dr. No's island is? >> >> On Mar 27, 5:28 pm, nominal9 <nomin...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21948429 >> > >> > Major UK banks must raise a total of £25bn in extra capital by the end >> of >> > 2013 to guard against potential losses, the Bank of England (BoE) has >> said. >> > >> > In a statement< >> http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Pages/news/2013/013.aspx>, >> > the BoE's Financial Policy Committee (FPC) said only some banks need to >> > raise the cash, but did not name them. >> > >> > It said banks could face losses of about £50bn over the next three >> years, >> > relating to bad loans and fines. >> > >> > The order is the first from the FPC, the new financial stability >> regulator. >> > >> > It said UK banks and building societies could lose billions of pounds >> over >> > the next three years relating to "high-risk" loans in the UK commercial >> > property sector and vulnerable eurozone economies. >> > >> > They may also lose money through fines, and require extra capital to >> > support a "more prudent approach to risk". >> > >> > Some banks already have enough capital to cover these costs, the FPC >> said, >> > but others are short. >> > >> > Yet more money may need to be raised after the end of 2013, the FPC >> warned, >> > so that banks conform to incoming "Basel III" accords on banking >> regulation. >> > Shares mixed >> > >> > No new government money will be required. Banks are likely to raise the >> > funds by issuing more bonds or selling shares. >> > >> > But BBC business editor Robert Peston says in the short term the need >> to >> > raise cash will be bad news for investors, including taxpayers who >> still >> > own big stakes in two banks - Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds. >> > >> > If these banks are among those that need to raise more capital, it may >> > delay plans to sell the stakes back to private investors. >> > >> > In a statement RBS insisted it had "a strong capital position". >> > >> > "We will continue to work with our regulators to ensure RBS remains at >> the >> > forefront of international capital standards," it said. >> > >> > However, by midday RBS shares were down 3%. >> > >> > Other bank shares reflected a mixed response to the FPC's announcement. >> > Shares in Lloyds were up more than 1.6%, while HSBC and Barclays were >> both >> > down by about 0.5%. >> > >> > The British Bankers' Association, the banking trade body, described the >> > FPC's report as "the latest step in an ongoing discussion between the >> UK's >> > banks and their regulators" about the levels of capital they should be >> > holding. >> > >> > It said raising capital levels needed to be done in such a way as to >> > support growth. >> > Sustaining lending >> > >> > The FPC said capital raising measures were also designed to ensure that >> > banks were able to continue lending to businesses and each other, >> should >> > another banking crisis hit. >> > >> > The extra capital was needed "to ensure sufficient capacity to absorb >> > losses and sustain lending", the FPC said. >> > >> > The FPC has overall responsibility for financial regulation in the UK >> and >> > is part of a new order of regulation designed to keep the banks under >> > closer scrutiny. >> > >> > It will oversee two new financial watchdogs: the Prudential Regulation >> > Authority (PRA), which will take over responsibility for supervising >> the >> > safety and soundness of individual financial firms, and the Financial >> > Conduct Authority (FCA), which will be tasked with protecting consumers >> and >> > making sure that workers in the financial services sector comply with >> rules. >> > >> > The new watchdogs will replace the Financial Services Authority (FSA), >> > which is set to close next week. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 11:18:57 AM UTC-4, nominal9 wrote: >> > >> > > Bail-Ins instead of Bail-Outs....there you go.... >> > >> > > somebody's finally thinking.... contrary logic.... >> > >> > > HAR HAR HAR HAR. >> > >> > > I like it.... >> > >> > > the U.S. should go back and "bail in" the Wall Street banks and >> trading >> > > firms..... >> > >> > >http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/26/eurozone-banks-bailouts-idU... >> >> > >> > > Cyprus rescue marks "game-changer" for Europe's banks >> > >> > > - >> > > - inShare >> > > - Share this >> > > - >> > > - Email >> > > - Print >> > >> > > Related News >> > >> > > - Global shares, euro checked by Cyprus bailout nerves< >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/26/us-markets-global-idUSBRE88...> >> >> > > 9:17am EDT >> > > - WRAPUP 10-Cyprus leader hails bailout, but banks stay closed< >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/25/eurozone-cyprus-idUSL5N0CH0...> >> >> > > Mon, Mar 25 2013 >> > > - Shares, euro retreat as Cyprus deal stirs unease< >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/25/us-markets-global-idUSBRE88...> >> >> > > Mon, Mar 25 2013 >> > > - Analysis: Cyprus rescue raises new questions about euro's >> long-term >> > > survival< >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/25/us-eurozone-cyprus-contagio...> >> >> > > Mon, Mar 25 2013 >> > > - Cyprus and EU agree draft proposal to rescue banks< >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/24/us-cyprus-parliament-idUSBR...> >> >> > > Sun, Mar 24 2013 >> > >> > > Analysis & Opinion >> > >> > > - One-off or precedent?< >> http://blogs.reuters.com/macroscope/2013/03/26/one-off-or-precedent/> >> > > - The Dijsselbloem Principle< >> http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2013/03/25/the-dijsselbloem-pri...> >> >> > >> > > Related Topics >> > >> > > - Investing and Taxes Simplified »< >> http://www.reuters.com/subjects/investing-simplified> >> > > - Financials » <http://www.reuters.com/sectors/financials> >> > >> > > By Steve Slater >> > >> > > LONDON, March 26 | Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:13am EDT >> > >> > > (Reuters) - If the bailout of Cyprus is a template for European >> rescue >> > > deals it marks a "game-changer" for banks that could raise funding >> costs, >> > > see deposits shift more quickly and delay the prospect of higher >> dividends<http://www.reuters.com/finance/markets/dividends?lc=int_mb_1001> >> >> > > . >> > >> > > Europe signalled this week that large depositors would shoulder part >> of >> > > the cost of future bank bailouts after savings over 100,000 euros >> were >> > > targeted in the Cyprus rescue package. That sent bank share prices >> falling >> > > and pushed up the cost of insuring bank debt against default. >> > >> > > "Bail-in is thus replacing bail-out. As a consequence, the cost of >> bank >> > > funding will increase, bank deposits will become less sticky, and >> banks >> > > must hold more equity capital to reassure their creditors," said Nick >> > > Anderson, analyst at Berenberg. >> > >> > > "The elephant in the room has been spotted at last." >> > >> > > Jeroen Dijsselbloem, head of the Eurogroup of euro zone< >> http://www.reuters.com/subjects/euro-zone?lc=int_mb_1001> >> > > finance <http://www.reuters.com/finance> ministers, said on Monday >> that >> > > in future, the currency bloc should first ask banks to recapitalise >> > > themselves, then look to shareholders and bondholders and then "if >> > > necessary" to uninsured deposit holders. >> > >> > > "Now that the crisis is fading out, I think we need to dare a little >> more >> > > in dealing with this," he said. >> > >> > > In addition to big depositors, senior bondholders in Cyprus's >> > > second-largest bank, Laiki, will be wiped out and holders of senior >> paper >> > > in the largest lender, Bank of Cyprus, will also be hit. >> > >> > > In previous packages for Greece <http://www.reuters.com/places/greece>, >> >> > > Ireland <http://www.reuters.com/places/ireland?lc=int_mb_1001>, >> Portugal<http://www.reuters.com/places/portugal?lc=int_mb_1001>and >> Spain, leaders were unwilling to force losses on either senior >> > > bondholders or savers for fear of prompting flight from banks across >> the >> > > region. >> > >> > > Under new EU regulations, senior bondholders would bear part of the >> cost >> > > of future bank bailouts but that provision is not due to be enforced >> before >> > > 2015. Non-eurozone member Denmark is the only EU state to impose >> losses on >> > > senior bondholders in recent years, but after its banks were shut out >> of >> > > debt markets <http://www.reuters.com/finance/markets?lc=int_mb_1001> >> in >> > > 2011 it has moved to limit the likelihood of such losses. >> > >> > > Europe's banking index was down nearly 0.6 percent by 1310 GMT, >> adding to >> > > a 1.9 percent fall on Monday and putting it on course for a fourth >> > > successive daily fall. >> > >> > > Banks in Italy <http://www.reuters.com/places/italy> and Spain, two >> > > countries at the heart of the euro zone< >> http://www.reuters.com/subjects/euro-zone?lc=int_mb_1001>crisis, were >> among the biggest fallers with UniCredit and Spain's BBVA down >> > > over two percent. Italian regional lender Banca Carige had slid over >> three >> > > percent. >> > >> > > The cost of insuring European banks' senior bonds against default >> rose, >> > > with the Markit iTraxx senior financials index widening 14 basis >> points to >> > > 181. The index for subordinated bonds - riskier as they rank behind >> senior >> > > debt if a bank is wound up - widened 20 basis points to 302 basis >> points. >> > >> > > Critics of the action on Cyprus said it had re-established the link >> > > between weak banks and weak sovereigns and could scare depositors, >> but >> > > others said it was long overdue. >> > >> > > "Finally the EU is doing the right thing. If you take risk, if you're >> an >> > > equity holder, a bondholder, or an uninsured depositor, you should be >> at >> > > risk," said Simon Maughan, analyst at Olivetree Securities. "It is >> the >> > > bailing out of the bondholders that has been the biggest problem >> throughout >> > > these bailouts." >> > >> > > Maughan said there were still risks in Spain, Italy< >> http://www.reuters.com/places/italy?lc=int_mb_1001>and possibly >> > > France <http://www.reuters.com/places/france>. "The only way to deal >> with >> > > them would be to make the investors that put money in in the first >> place to >> > > front up," he said. >> > >> > > "WAKE-UP CALL" >> > >> > > Deposits above 100,000 euros have been at risk since the level of >> > > guarantee was raised and reinforced during the 2008/09 financial >> crisis. >> > > Cyprus is a reminder that above that level depositors are effectively >> > > unsecured creditors. >> > >> > > Savers are more likely than ever to spread their cash around, >> analysts >> > > said. >> > >> > > "It's a wake-up call... and deposits are likely to be more fluid if >> you >> > > see a risk emerging," Maughan said. >> > >> > > "It is now rational >> > >> > ... >> > >> > read more » >> >
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