Would appreciate a perspective from female identifying players on this. Watching the Yaka - Jinx final at the same tournament as Budda mentioned in the stream and also saw a few rollers as well as pulls that were floaty against the wind.
On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 at 14:51, Rüdiger Veitl <ruediger.ve...@blusystems.de> wrote: > Problem with Olivier’s suggestion is – “how can the defense plyers then > pick their opponent if they are all spread out”. > > > > I think it is easy for an organized offense to send 2 players to the back > of the end zone (upon the pull) to catch and center the disc do a handler > who waits at the front of the end zone. > > The offense simply needs to be prepared to do so. > > > > *Von:* Olivier Cassart <cassart.oliv...@gmail.com> > *Gesendet:* Samstag, 3. Juni 2023 11:41 > *An:* Robert Jablko <robert.jab...@googlemail.com> > *Cc:* Rüdiger Veitl <ruediger.ve...@blusystems.de>; > eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de; Christian Schneider <cschn...@cschneid.com> > *Betreff:* Re: [ED] What is a good pull? > > > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of blu Systems GmbH. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > > Hello all, > > > > What if we removed the off-side rule which requires offensive team players > to stay immobile with one foot on the line before and during the pull? > Offensive players could then gain momentum, like defensive players, and go > to stop the roller-pull faster. > > > > My 2 cents, > > Olivier > > > > Le jeu. 1 juin 2023 à 13:51, Robert Jablko <robert.jab...@googlemail.com> > a écrit : > > Hello, > > > > INDOOR GERMANY > > > > I remember a discussion from 2019 on the indoor pull in Germany. There > were concerns because the disc would sometimes be lasered as hard as > possible on bodyheight, which was technically legal at some point, but the > rule was consequently modified. > > > > "Der Anwurf: Der anwerfende Spieler muss beim Anwurf sicherstellen, dass > die Gesundheit aller Spieler und Zuschauer nicht mutwillig gefährdet wird > und der Anwurf fangbar ist. Dies schließt insbesondere Anwürfe aus, die mit > großer Kraft auf Körperhöhe über das Feld geworfen werden." (version from > november 2019) > > > > which bascially translates to > > > > the pull > > - has to take into consideration that all players and spectators are not > in harms way > > - has to be *"catchable"* > > > > it explictly mentions pulls with great force on bodyheight as forbidden > > > > That is one example from recent years where the pull rule was modified. > > > > ONGOING DISCUSSION > > > > I can see your point Buddha. A nice long floating pull is beautiful and > something we want to see. At the same time, i wonder if it's always > possible, especially in very windy conditions. In these conditions it > happens a lot, that discs have to be retrieved or sometimes get bend. A > blade may cut through wind a little better. > > > > I also understand that the "stoppage" might not be as attractive. From a > tactical perspective though, I think it's already a balanced situation. > > > > Blade pulls are a risky strategy for both the offense and the defense. *The > defense wants the other teams to take a risk*. (1) They want them to try > and catch the disc and drop it. Instant turn. The offense has the option to > catch and move upfield long before the defense can settle (big reward), > because the blade is so fast. (2) The defense also has the option to stop > the disc once it touches the ground and immediately move upfield (small > reward). This is also risky, because when it roll out of bounds then, the > offence needs to bring into the game from there. *So, when the defense > choses not to take any of the risk, I don't think they should be rewarded > with a brick point.* There already is a small punishment for discs > rolling out of bounds for the defense. Instead of starting from the > endline, the offense brings it to the centralzone (here the goalline). > > I think it's a valid strategy, just like bladey pulls that roll out of > bounds on the sideline, maybe close to the endzone in order to force a > prefered side (maybe downwind when there is strong sidewind). I also don't > think this is new. I remeber having seen that many years ago in college > ultimate. > > > > Cheers, Robse > > > > > > Am Do., 1. Juni 2023 um 12:48 Uhr schrieb Rüdiger Veitl < > ruediger.ve...@blusystems.de>: > > I agree with Robert > > > > The Pull is one of the Mail tools of the Defense (sadly one of the most > ignored one by many teams) > > It requires skill and strength. > > The defense tries to give the offense the hardest starting position > possible. > > Unskilled pullers will either throw it OB which is punished by the brick > or pull it too short or not floaty enough giving the offense a good portion > of the field. > > > > The perfect pull has the following characteristics > > - Lots of time in the air > - Lands inbounds as closely to the back ot the field as possible > - Stays inbounds > > > > If the pull is in bounds the offense can catch it and start play > immediately and that is just what they should do. > > A handler can gain an advantage by catching (or stopping) the disc, and > they should. > > > > My 2 cents > > > > Cheerio > > Rü > > > > > > > > *Von:* EuroDisc <eurodisc-boun...@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de> *Im Auftrag von > *Robert > Pesch > *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 1. Juni 2023 10:09 > *An:* Christian Schneider <cschn...@cschneid.com> > *Cc:* eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de > *Betreff:* Re: [ED] What is a good pull? > > > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of blu Systems GmbH. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > > My opinion: just catch the disc or try to stop it. Offence anyway has > advantages in our game. > > --- > > Robert Pesch > > beachultimate.eu > > Am 31. Mai 2023, um 19:46, Christian Schneider <cschn...@cschneid.com> > schrieb: > > I have a question for the Ultimate community: What is a good pull? > Or more specifically: What is the role of the pull in the game? > > The reason I'm asking this is because after watching some recent games I was > reminded of Beach Worlds in Royan in 2017 where due to the windy conditions > teams started to blade their pulls into the end zone with the goal of making > them hard to stop, rolling out of the field so the defense has time to set > up. This is easier on the shorter Beach field but also doable on the grass > field as can be seen in the La Fotta - Clapham game and is becoming a > strategy: > https://www.youtube.com/live/or8VsDWsu5M?feature=share&t=485 > > Now why do I bring this up? Perhaps a little background from Ultimate > history: A long time ago the brick used to be 9m up and teams regularly > pulled out of the field on purpose to set up their defense. The rules people > came to the conclusion that this is not in the interested of a fluid game and > the brick was moved to 18m. > > My point is that while the blading roller pull might be a strategic option it > also defeats the purpose of starting the game: An immediate "stoppage" is > introduced instead while the receiving team retrieves the pull. > > One counter-measure (which was tried) was to place discs at the end zone > cones to minimize fetching time. But this increases the logistics for > tournaments (they also need to be replaced when used) and I have never seen > this work, even at Worlds level. > > Now you might say that the opposing sideline team can stop the rolling disc > but in reality this is only doable along the side of the field and even there > it might be tricky if e.g. part is fenced off due to live-streaming equipment > or an adjacent field being close. > > Some people might also really like the option of a short pull rolling out of > the field at around mid-field to set up a zone D. In case this is something > the community considers important enough one could allow going to the brick > only when the pull rolls out of the end zone (side or back). Personally I'd > like to keep it simple and allow brick for all pulls ending out-of-bounds > without contact. > > A little pull-related side-note: AUDL changed their pull rule for this season > so the pulls are done from the brick mark. They do have the throwers to pull > the full 80yds of the bigger AUDL field but the time it takes to set up D > allowed for an immediate 2-3 passes. By making the pull 20yds shorter they > made lofty pulls to the back of the end zone feasible, giving the D time to > get in position while still starting the game immediately. > > PROPOSAL: Allow the brick option when a pull rolls out after landing > in-bounds. > RATIONALE: I believe a long floating pull which allows the defense to set up > but still starts the game without interruption is the preferable type of pull > game-flow- and spectator-wise. > > Opinions? > - Buddha > > ------------------------------ > > > EuroDisc mailing list > eurod...@ira.uka.de > http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc > > _______________________________________________ > EuroDisc mailing list > eurod...@ira.uka.de > http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc > > _______________________________________________ > EuroDisc mailing list > eurod...@ira.uka.de > http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc > > _______________________________________________ > EuroDisc mailing list > eurod...@ira.uka.de > http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc -- regards, Lukas
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