EV Digest 2456
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: ZAP making an offer for Think, needs to hear about Tango
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) California 2EZ ZEV credits a letter to CARB
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: OT conversion of inverter.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
by Eric Penne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Silent Running
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Re. Surplus Aircraft Nicads, a Caution!
by Steve Downing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Silent Running - silly sounds
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: TH!NKing
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Updated Ghiamonster Pics...
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: At What Price? (was: Help With Repairing Traction Motor)
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Question about ammeter with regen
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Question about ammeter with regen
by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Silent Running - silly sounds
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Alternator/ motor setup
by Michael Shipway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) bats "best power"
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Dec 2002 at 15:57, Tim Clevenger wrote:
> Voltage would be inheriting quite a mess of coding and
> electronics, and would likely have to take on the whole Think staff (and
> Norway facility) just to continue development and debugging of the vehicle.
There are some problems, no doubt. I'm not an insider by any means, but from
the rumors I've heard, it sounds like Ford had no clue how to attack the
problems, much less solve them. All Zap would need do is hire one or two
really good EV engineers and a few decent technicians.
That's rather the story at Corbin, too, isn't it; but they didn't want to
follow the engineers' recommendations, so the Sparrow is currently grounded
(perhaps permanently). I also wonder whether Voltage have the resources and
judgement to pull it off anyway.
I hope I'm wrong, but I fear that the Think City will go the way of the
Tropica/Zebra, a fate it doesn't deserve.
> More likely [Ford] will just close it down to make sure that the Think
> EV never comes back to bite them.
This is the likely outcome.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- Begin Message ---
Marvin,
Can you convert the heaters to burn biodiesel? Of course, you'd have to
cope with the brewing process smelling like french fries...
Ralph
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--- Begin Message ---
I work part-time as a firefighter - so I am a fan of belts and special
seats. However..... In my ambulance, the jump seat is specially made so that
the seat back folds down and it becomes a car seat for a child, just in case
I need one. (Not an infant - it is a sit up straight thing). If that was an
option in the back seat of my car, you BET I would buy it....
Now, if you could put one or two of those into the rear of your EV - you
might be set.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
> On 3 Dec 2002 at 21:52, Peter Howell wrote:
>
> > I grew up in a family of two adults and three children with a beetle.
Oh
> > yes, and at 6'3" I'm the runt of the litter.
>
> Yeah, this puzzles me too. The family up the street from me had 8 kids,
and
> they all managed somehow to ride in a normal-size Pontiac station wagon.
Of
> course this was in the days long before car seats were required for little
> kids; usually the smallest one rode on mom's lap (a practice I do NOT
> condone).
>
> When I was in Italy a few years ago I saw much the same thing -- whole
> families -- ^big^ families -- stuffed into little Fiat Puntos and Pandas.
> If they needed more room for gear, they put it on the roof. But unlike
> Americans they didn't seem to feel the need to take half the house along
on
> a Sunday afternoon outing.
>
> When I was in high school, I was on the speech team. The parents drove us
> in bunches to competitions. Usually they packed 4 kids across the back
seat
> of their sedans and 2 more in the front, and drove for 45 minutes or so.
I
> rode like that quite often with a mom who drove a Rambler Classic. (Don't
> yell at me about "not enough seat belts for 4 kids." That car didn't have
> ^any^ seat belts in the back seat.)
>
> These days some people seem to think that they're mistreating the kids,
and
> themselves, if they don't ride in a 3-ton box the size of a small mobile
> home for a 10-minute trip to baseball practice. C'mon, what's a little
> discomfort for a few minutes, even an hour or two? I think lots of
> Americans, especially the kids, are just spoiled.
>
> That said, some of the blame has to go to the automakers. First, they
> created this sense of "need" in consumers with their advertising
>
> There's also the fact that laws now require child seats (don't get me
wrong,
> these are good laws), which don't allow much flexibility in placement.
This
> has been and will continue to be a problem for 2-place EVs. Several
people
> have mentioned the Honda EV+ as much superior to the EV1 in this regard.
> (Too bad one can't get either vehicle any more.)
>
> If the automakers were sensible, they could design in much better
> accomodations for little kids and their special restraints. Look at the
> Fiat Multipla for an example of a quirky but efficient and interesting
> design for families. But don't look for anything of the sort from
Detroit --
> that might cut into their sales of highly profitable big vehicles.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Dear CARB staff person Tom Evashenk, ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
I have owned, leased and operated several battery electric vehicles in
San Francisco California for over a decade now and currently use a Think
City.
I find that CARB has been a big factor in getting ZEV cars to our
Californian market in the past, keep up the good work. However I now
find the recent CARB negotiated ZEV credit agreements and arrangements
unacceptable. This inability to keep the Auto manufactures in tune with
the original intention and sprit of the early mandate is very
disgusting. How dare you at CARB staff give full ZEV credits for NEV's,
that should never have happened. I for one will concede with ZEV
credits for plug in hybrids as these cars are full size street and High
Way legal and can run as a battery EV or ICE. It makes me mad that CARB
has allowed some of the big car makers to have banked enough
disingenuous ZEV credits to stop any further ZEV production till 2011.
Why allow the car makers to get away with this raw deal for
Californians.
Why remove the mechanism to encourage them to innovate or scale up
existing technologies to reduce cost with larger unit volumes.
I as a Californian and early adopter of alt fuel technology find these
actions very disturbing.
Maybe its time to examine a State wide carbon tax proposal based on
fuel usage in ICE vehicles as another tactic.
The true cost in terms of health care for lung disease and other
associated illnesses.
The true cost to the environment in terms of oil run off from millions
of cars and possible future oil tanker spills.
The true cost of having to continue searching for finite oil resources
in unstable political hemispheres or environmentally sensitive regions.
The true cost for US Militarism defending and maintaining existing oil
flow from Middle Eastern governments.
The true cost is to much for me.
Please stop these cheap deals with the Car Makers and don't back off
from the original intent of why your CARB.
Sincerely,
Danny Ames
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Dec 2002 at 11:06, James Jarrett wrote:
> I have an el-cheapo wall mart modified sine wave inverter (330w cont, 660w
> max). This thing takes in 12v DC and gives out 120v ac. I was wondering if
> anyone makes at a fair price the same unit that runs on 48v? Or could the
> one I have be modified without too much work or expense.
Inverters are made in just about any voltage you want. The most common
voltages are 12 and 24. I've seen a few 48v units, but the higher voltages
are usually special order items; they can be hard to find and also quite
pricey.
Fair price? When one considers the relatively high cost of design vs. the
limited production and sales of these inverters, the multi-thousand dollar
cost might very well be considered a fair price. The demand is so low that
it's surprising they even exist.
No offense, and not to sound too preachy, but this is a hot button issue for
me. The concept of "fair price" has really been perverted by the widespread
use of Far East sweatshop labor. Your Wal-mart inverter was not sold at a
fair price! It was most likely assembled by people working 16-18 hours per
day and paid roughly 20 cents per hour, while exposed to dangerous chemicals
and fire hazards in a plant generating substantial environmental pollution.
A truly fair price for such a product would allow the people who built it to
make a decent wage, and would pay for responsible safety and environmental
business practices. I'm not an economist, but I'll make a wild guess that a
really fair price would be at least twice what you paid, probably more.
OK, OK, that's 'way more than you wanted to know. I'll get off the soapbox
now. Sorry.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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I was thinking along the same lines. The whole Insight conversion
thing got me to thinking about where I could put a kid and still let my
wife ride along. I was thinking about a dedicated frame extension that
came to the top of the battery box in the rear area. Seatbelts or some
other means of fastening the child seat to the extension directly.
While I'm at it I could weld a roll bar around the seat for added
protection since the seat might be too close to the roof.
Random mind wandering sometimes leads to weird not-so-implementable
ideas.
I think that an Insight, Civic, or Prius conversion that can be done
for under 25,000 USD might be very marketable. I can hardly stand to
wait for the pictures of the Insight conversions. If I had money in
the bank I might fly to the NorthWest US to see all the cars and help
with the conversion. Alas, I'm broke and dreaming.
Eric
PS. Help me realize my dream. Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] to find out
where you can send me money. :)
--- Kevin Coughlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I work part-time as a firefighter - so I am a fan of belts and
> special
> seats. However..... In my ambulance, the jump seat is specially made
> so that
> the seat back folds down and it becomes a car seat for a child, just
> in case
> I need one. (Not an infant - it is a sit up straight thing). If that
> was an
> option in the back seat of my car, you BET I would buy it....
>
> Now, if you could put one or two of those into the rear of your EV -
> you
> might be set.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 8:07 AM
> Subject: Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
>
>
> > On 3 Dec 2002 at 21:52, Peter Howell wrote:
> >
> > > I grew up in a family of two adults and three children with a
> beetle.
> Oh
> > > yes, and at 6'3" I'm the runt of the litter.
> >
> > Yeah, this puzzles me too. The family up the street from me had 8
> kids,
> and
> > they all managed somehow to ride in a normal-size Pontiac station
> wagon.
> Of
> > course this was in the days long before car seats were required for
> little
> > kids; usually the smallest one rode on mom's lap (a practice I do
> NOT
> > condone).
> >
> > When I was in Italy a few years ago I saw much the same thing --
> whole
> > families -- ^big^ families -- stuffed into little Fiat Puntos and
> Pandas.
> > If they needed more room for gear, they put it on the roof. But
> unlike
> > Americans they didn't seem to feel the need to take half the house
> along
> on
> > a Sunday afternoon outing.
> >
> > When I was in high school, I was on the speech team. The parents
> drove us
> > in bunches to competitions. Usually they packed 4 kids across the
> back
> seat
> > of their sedans and 2 more in the front, and drove for 45 minutes
> or so.
> I
> > rode like that quite often with a mom who drove a Rambler Classic.
> (Don't
> > yell at me about "not enough seat belts for 4 kids." That car
> didn't have
> > ^any^ seat belts in the back seat.)
> >
> > These days some people seem to think that they're mistreating the
> kids,
> and
> > themselves, if they don't ride in a 3-ton box the size of a small
> mobile
> > home for a 10-minute trip to baseball practice. C'mon, what's a
> little
> > discomfort for a few minutes, even an hour or two? I think lots of
> > Americans, especially the kids, are just spoiled.
> >
> > That said, some of the blame has to go to the automakers. First,
> they
> > created this sense of "need" in consumers with their advertising
> >
> > There's also the fact that laws now require child seats (don't get
> me
> wrong,
> > these are good laws), which don't allow much flexibility in
> placement.
> This
> > has been and will continue to be a problem for 2-place EVs.
> Several
> people
> > have mentioned the Honda EV+ as much superior to the EV1 in this
> regard.
> > (Too bad one can't get either vehicle any more.)
> >
> > If the automakers were sensible, they could design in much better
> > accomodations for little kids and their special restraints. Look
> at the
> > Fiat Multipla for an example of a quirky but efficient and
> interesting
> > design for families. But don't look for anything of the sort from
> Detroit --
> > that might cut into their sales of highly profitable big vehicles.
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on
> vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> =
> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this
> to all
> > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite
> thee.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> =
> >
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Howell wrote:
> I grew up in a family of two adults and three children with a
> beetle. Oh yes, and at 6'3" I'm the runt of the litter. I was
> a bit blue at birth, but wouldn't fit into the incubator.
>
> I guess kids today just don't fold like we used to. :-)
Ah yes, the "good" old days... 2 adults and 4 children driving non-stop
drives from Detroit to Cookeville, TN in a Volvo 122 wagon: adults up
front, two kids laying on the back seat, and one curled up on the
floorboard behind each front seat.
Several years later as a family of 2 adults and 5 (much larger) kids we
made the same trek but from Wawa, Ontario to Cookeville in a 2-door
Chevy Citation.
It isn't a matter of folding like we used to, but rather that seatbelt
usage was not mandatory then and neither were car seats for
infants/children. The best you can do now is to squeeze in one person
per seatbelt, and with the size of today's child car seats sometimes
even that can't be achieved.
Most all passenger cars today seem to be 5-passenger at best, and same
with all but the largest of SUVs. The trend seems to be that cars are
getting smaller (a trend I generally support), but this means that even
the back seat in a 5-passenger wagon is now just barely wide enough for
2 car seats and one modestly-sized person to squeeze into. I want the
smallest vehicle that will serve my needs, but unfortunately, today this
pretty much means a minivan when those needs include seating 6 with room
left over for the dog and a bit of luggage (sorry David; the luggage can
go in the roof, but the wife frowns at putting the dog up there,
regardless of what people elsewhere might do ;^).
Yesteryear's "normal size Pontiac wagon" or equivalent would also do the
job, with its generous bench seats front and rear, however, I don't need
or want yesteryear's V8 with its attendent low fuel economy and high
emissions.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Walker, Lesley R wrote:
>
> George Tylinski wrote:
> > My ideal would be to push a button (or possibly come on
> > automatically in
> > reverse) and play the famous Bugs Bunny in the movie theatre clip,
> > "'scuse me, paddon me, paddon me, 'scuse me"
> >
> > Or maybe something more serious, like a rooster cock-a-doodle-dooing.
>
> Hmmmm. How about a lion roaring... elephant trumpeting...
>
> <thinks some more> Bird calls from endangered species...
John Force at launch comes to mind.... and that sound from a Ford
Fiesta????
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote
BTW, the Saft MR modules, which are designed for EVs, do not require this
treatment.
The Caution only relates to used aircraft starter nicads! The Saft EV block
batteries are different and are great by all accounts!
This belies the success of about 8,000 Peugeot, Citroen, and Renault EVs in
Europe, all fitted with Saft nicads.
Most of us don't try to use SLI lead batteries in our EVs. We know that
they're ill-suited to the purpose. Similarly, an EV should use nicads
designed for cyclic use, not starter use.
That is my point, and cells with the required Amp/Hrs for the job!
Regards Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre Blanchard wrote:
> I personally think that heating anything with electricity is a big
> waste... But for the most part electric stoves, clothes dryers, and
> water heaters are in my opinion a waste of energy.
A lot depends on your situation.
For example, a kitchen range dumps 100% of its heat inside your house
(they are not vented outside). When you are heating the house anyway,
BTUs from the stove reduce the BTUs from the furnace. Your furnace is
probably less than 100% efficient, so it takes less energy to heat with
the stove than with the furnace (regardless of whether it is an electric
or gas stove).
If you are air conditioning, then the electric stove is a better choice
than gas, because essentially 100% of the heat it produces goes into
whatever you are cooking. Gas stoves have lots of waste heat that only
heats the kitchen; bad news when you are air conditiong, because you pay
double; once to produce the excess heat, and again to pump it out of the
house.
If you have a heat pump, then it is more than 100% efficient at
producing heat. It isn't making the heat; it is pumping it in from
outdoors, which takes less energy. So, electric heat is more efficient.
Electric water heaters generally have better insulation than gas water
heaters (because electricity costs more than gas). The extra insulation
means the total energy used by an electric water heater is less. Of
course, you pay more for this energy (because gas is dirt cheap). PS"
Getting rid of the standing pilot in a water heater does not save
energy; even the heat from the pilot light heats water, and so isn't
wasted.
The situation for clothes dryers is similar. Gas dryers use more BTUs
worth of energy to produce the same amount of heat (because they use
fairly low efficiency burners), but those BTUs cost you less than
electricity. If the dryer is not vented outside, it helps in winter but
hinders when air conditioning. If the dryer is vented outside (most
are), then gas dryers simply cost less but use more energy.
To get back to EVs, we use electric heat because that's all we have
available. I had an EV with a gas heater, and didn't like it. I took it
out and went to a resistive heater.
The ideal situation for an EV is to use a heat pump. The GM EV1 does,
but few others have gone this way. Most cars are so inefficient that
they consider heating and cooling energy "free", but this is far from
the case with EVs.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> John Force at launch comes to mind.... and that sound from a Ford
> Fiesta????
John Force? I had to Google that one...
But the word "launch" made me think "space shuttle".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Uzi wrote:
> someone with that kind of dough can purchase a production run of each,
> donate the vehicles to non-profits that could use/re-sell
> them, and then
> write the whole thing off
>
> hell, if Bill Gates did it, even, I might even say something
> nice about him for the first time
Send him the suggestion, he might even do it. He seems to have taken
an interest in "good causes" these days.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Just wanted to let everyone know that there's updated pictures of the
Ghiamonster at http://www.ghiamonster.com in the Pictures section at the
bottom. These pictures show the tube frame of the passenger's compartment
with the four link brackets and rear end attached. I should have more
pictures in a week or two showing most of the chassis built.
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod: It's a GE motor.
Bob: The ElectraVan is a REAL car. I happen to like microcars. I
own an Isetta too. They both have about the same top speed of
55 mph.
All:
I ended up ordering an entire brush assembly for $172. That's a fair
price to fabricate it since GE no longer stocks parts for the motor. My
old assembly was serviceable, but the "right" repair was to replace it.
The place is Jos T. Fewkes in NJ.
The brushes were $30 each from the same place. That a lot better price
than most other places, but no bargain for a little slab of charcoal.
So for less than $300, I will be back on the road. How can I complain
if the fuel pump for my VW Vanagon costs $275. ... Of course, I
replaced that for $10 with a visit to my local U-Pull-It junk yard.
Mike - Phoenix, AZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I worked in AZ as a Co-op student I lived in an apartment complex
in Avendale. They had solor water heaters on the roof and I think rarely
had to use external sources to heat the water. This was nice for
heating the
pool and jacuzzi in the winter and most apartment units used the 'free' hot
water from the roof units. I would think this is the most cost
effective and
energy efficient way of heating the water. They may have been less
concerned with energy
conservation than saving money on the utilities (although I could be wrong).
These things worked quite well in the winter (at least in AZ) and I'm
sure saved
considerable money for the slum lords.
If you consider all of the inefficiencies of using solar water heating
it is still free except
for the up front cost of the equipment. I wonder how much of this is
used in other
parts of the country? In Ohio we use smog and pollution to keep heating
cost down :-)
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
Lee Hart wrote:
Andre Blanchard wrote:
I personally think that heating anything with electricity is a big
waste... But for the most part electric stoves, clothes dryers, and
water heaters are in my opinion a waste of energy.
A lot depends on your situation.
For example, a kitchen range dumps 100% of its heat inside your house
(they are not vented outside). When you are heating the house anyway,
BTUs from the stove reduce the BTUs from the furnace. Your furnace is
probably less than 100% efficient, so it takes less energy to heat with
the stove than with the furnace (regardless of whether it is an electric
or gas stove).
If you are air conditioning, then the electric stove is a better choice
than gas, because essentially 100% of the heat it produces goes into
whatever you are cooking. Gas stoves have lots of waste heat that only
heats the kitchen; bad news when you are air conditiong, because you pay
double; once to produce the excess heat, and again to pump it out of the
house.
If you have a heat pump, then it is more than 100% efficient at
producing heat. It isn't making the heat; it is pumping it in from
outdoors, which takes less energy. So, electric heat is more efficient.
Electric water heaters generally have better insulation than gas water
heaters (because electricity costs more than gas). The extra insulation
means the total energy used by an electric water heater is less. Of
course, you pay more for this energy (because gas is dirt cheap). PS"
Getting rid of the standing pilot in a water heater does not save
energy; even the heat from the pilot light heats water, and so isn't
wasted.
The situation for clothes dryers is similar. Gas dryers use more BTUs
worth of energy to produce the same amount of heat (because they use
fairly low efficiency burners), but those BTUs cost you less than
electricity. If the dryer is not vented outside, it helps in winter but
hinders when air conditioning. If the dryer is vented outside (most
are), then gas dryers simply cost less but use more energy.
To get back to EVs, we use electric heat because that's all we have
available. I had an EV with a gas heater, and didn't like it. I took it
out and went to a resistive heater.
The ideal situation for an EV is to use a heat pump. The GM EV1 does,
but few others have gone this way. Most cars are so inefficient that
they consider heating and cooling energy "free", but this is far from
the case with EVs.
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All,
To automate Father Time's system, use a DPDT relay, actuated by either a
throttle switch, or the brake-light switch.
>Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 06:54:06 -0800
>From: Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Hi-
>install a dpdt toggle switch from Radio Shack in the lead from the shunt as a
>reversing switch. I used this system in the race boat to monitor the dump
>charge.
>F.T.
>
>Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
>
>> In my (somewhat limited) experience, driving a VU-style meter backwards with
>> the same current that would make it read full-scale forwards will not hurt
>> it at all.
>>
>> Diodes have too large of a voltage drop, at least all the diode types I'm
>> familiar with. Maybe some others will have better commentary on this.
>>
>> It is also possible, of course, to get a 'zero-in-the-middle' style ammeter
>> which will be able to read both regen and drive current. I think they go for
>> about $100.
>>
>> S.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 9:23 AM
>> Subject: Question about ammeter with regen
>>
>> > Hi EVerybody. I've a potential problem. I have an analog ammeter
>> > (Westach brand) connected across the 500 amp shunt. When I set
>> > up the regen on my Zapi sem-3 controller (which is currently set
>> > for minimum regen) am I going to kill the ammeter? My knowledge
>> > of electronics is limited. Will a bridge rectifier work to keep
>> > the ammeter showing positive or do diodes require higher voltage
>> > than the 50 mv shunt will provide? I could just take the
>> > ammeter out and rely on the e-meter, of course, but it looks cool
>> > in my dash alongside a similar style voltmeter.
>> >
>> > Mike Hoskinson
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
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Well, after being chastized about my strenuous position concerning applying
solder to pressure-connecterized stranded wiring, I'm a little reluctant to
even suggest that I could offer a solution to this problem, but I have in
the past used a precision voltage regulator to provide an "offest" to set
the zero current point of an ammeter at any desired position on the meter's
scale. This will not cause distortion of the meter's ballistics like simply
resetting the mechanical zero set screw will.
If anyone is interested in the details, contact me off-list, I'm attempting
to keep the list bandwith down and my own head low under cover, in the
event that having an opinion on this subject comes under fire.
-S
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You have of course totally ignored electricity generated by means other than
burning fuel (I.e. wind, rain, sun and nuclear.)
Hydro-electric power is very cheap in some areas and heating with
electricity can be cost effective in those places. I think my mom pays
$0.05 per kWh.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
> I personally think that heating anything with electricity is a big waste.
> There are cases where small amount of heat is needed and electricity is
just
> so very convenient and other cases where it is very difficult to safely
> provide heat by other means. But for the most part electric stoves,
clothes
> dryers, and water heaters are in my opinion a waste of energy.
> Think about it, any time you burn something with the goal of converting it
> to mechanical or electrical energy, most of the energy in the fuel gets
> converted directly to heat. For the most part our electricity is made by
> burning something, to create heat, which makes steam, which turns an
engine,
> finally turning the generator. Even if you use wind or PV generated
> electricity it is a waste because that electricity could be put to much
> better use offsetting electricity generated in the thermal plants. Unless
> you have a small wind or PV system that is off the grid and have no other
> way of storing the excess energy.
>
> Use the most appropriate/efficient source of energy for the task that
needs
> to be done, for heat, electricity is not the most efficient. Natural gas
or
> propane can be burned very efficiently even in small burners. So use the
> most efficient burner you can and have fun. You could build a small back
> yard digester to make your own gas but since they are not commonly mass
> produced that would be an entire other project it itself.
>
> And refrigeration is something that electricity does very well, thermal
> ammonia based systems may work on a large scale but in my experience they
> are not so good on a small scale or are very expensive.
>
> Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
> Isaac Newton
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Marvin Campbell
> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 12:34 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
>
> Isn't it funny how one thing leads to another?
>
> I put up solar panels on the garage two years ago- instead of buying a
> Harley(?!?!) because I felt so guilty about running three refrigerators.
You
> see...I'm a brewer.
>
> Then, right after I got that hot rod engine put in my big truck- a big
> honkin' Chevy 350 VeeeAte...I went and got all wierd and started buying
> electric cars...hmmm. Now I lust for things called "Blue Meanie" and
> "TZero".
>
> And as I continue my quest for freedom from fossil fuel I'm beginning to
> feel guilty about, not the coolers- though I am still cringing over those-
> but the propane I burn during the brewing process.
>
> In terms of economy AND ecology, what do you think is the best way to
heat
> fifteen gallons of water from 160 to <180 (preheated by our high falutin'
> Bosch tankless heater/NG) and then boil said fifteen or so gallons of wort
> for an hour or two?
>
> Now I'm using propane. Guilt. Stinky. Lots of btu's
>
> 'Bout to convert to NG. Guilt-Lite. Not stinky, but low on btu's.
>
> Some people brew with electric elements, but I don't think they're doing
12
> gallon batches.
>
> Also trying to find a solar (ammonia-based?) powered cooling system so I
can
> unplug those coolers.
>
> Any energy gurus out there have ideas for a green-leaning brewer?
>
> Or am I just taking this too far? (Call the family. Time for an
> eco-intervention.)
>
>
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Why not just run straight vegetable oil? It's a lot cheaper than bio-diesel
(and no hazardous chemicals) and contains as much energy. Or if you are
making bio-diesel anyway you could burn the glycerin that's left over.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
>
> Marvin,
>
> Can you convert the heaters to burn biodiesel? Of course, you'd have to
> cope with the brewing process smelling like french fries...
>
> Ralph
>
>
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Walker, Lesley R wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > John Force at launch comes to mind.... and that sound from a Ford
> > Fiesta????
>
> John Force? I had to Google that one...
>
> But the word "launch" made me think "space shuttle".
7 time funny Car winner... 6500 hp at 8Krpm on Nitro.... Nice sound.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Jay Donnaway wrote:
>
> Reading the discussion on alternator inefficiency and an alternator's low
> power when used as a motor; what's to stop one from rigging your own
> parallel hybrid by replacing the ICE's alternator with a DC motor/generator
> such as the 6.7" Advanced DC motor, and then using a DC-DC converter/charger
> and battery to power 12v accessories? (a a homemade version of Honda's
> Intergrated Motor Asssist).
>
> On a simpler note, is anyone aware of a plug-in hybrid conversion that added
> the DC motor to an ICE via an accessory drive belt?
>
> Jay Donnaway
> Atlanta, Ga
EVA/DC toured the Electromotive factory a couple of years back, where
they where building such a system.
It was a very smoothly assembled system that could be retrofitted onto
any vehicle that had the space.
They used an electric motor rated at 10% of the ICE.
It replaced the alternator and starter and was connected with a toothed
belt.
They where flipping the motor from generator mode on each ICE power
stroke to motor mode on each compression stroke. This smoothed the
engine vibration so much that I couldn't feel the engine speed in the
shift stick like I normally do. They said that theoretically you could
reduce the flywheel if you where sure the softwere would never ever
fail. They are realists and therefore they leave the flywheel alone.
By moving the line between the two states, they'd get either a net
charging or discharging of the batteries (16ah Hawker Genesis on the one
we saw).
The hatchback I test drove (maybe a Ford Fiesta?) it had tremendous
acceleration and enough starting torque to chirp the tires. They where
getting over 60 mpg if I remember right.
http://www.electromotive-inc.com/hybrid/index.html
--
Michael Shipway
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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He asked and I gave my opinion.
As far as cook stoves I never liked the way the electrics worked they just
do not respond properly. I do not think that the difference in efficiency
makes up for the conversion and transmission loses of the electric utility.
And if better burners were used like some kind of catalytic inferred then
more of the heat would make it into the food.
I will admit that electric ovens work better for coking some things.
Many of the new gas furnaces are advertised at better then 90%. If you had
two identical houses and one burned X amount of gas in a furnace for heat
and the other was heated with electricity made from the same amount of gas
at the power plant, the one with the furnace is going to be warmer.
Yep forgot about them heat pumps, I do wish they were installed more then
they are. But nothing says that the heat pump cannot be run by a small ICE
burning natural gas. The waste heat from the ICE would be used to boost the
low temp heat that you normally get from the heat pump.
The lower cost of gas is no excuse for using an inadequate amount of
insulation or a low efficiency burner.
I still say use the most appropriate and efficient form of energy to do the
given job, and when it comes to heat that is not always electricity.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
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I did not.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 10:15 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
> You have of course totally ignored electricity generated by means other
than
> burning fuel (I.e. wind, rain, sun and nuclear.)
>
> Hydro-electric power is very cheap in some areas and heating with
> electricity can be cost effective in those places. I think my mom pays
> $0.05 per kWh.
>
<< snip >>
> > finally turning the generator. Even if you use wind or PV generated
> > electricity it is a waste because that electricity could be put to much
> > better use offsetting electricity generated in the thermal plants.
Unless
> > you have a small wind or PV system that is off the grid and have no
other
> > way of storing the excess energy.
> >
<< snip >>
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There are also solid fuels. But they are typically harder to get a find
control of the heat produced. They could be more efficient if you include
the energy required for planting harvesting and preprocessing of the fuel.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 10:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
Why not just run straight vegetable oil? It's a lot cheaper than bio-diesel
(and no hazardous chemicals) and contains as much energy. Or if you are
making bio-diesel anyway you could burn the glycerin that's left over.
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The trolling motor c31 12v deep cycle bats that I had in my Porsche have
been dropping dead one by one ( dead meaning less than 15ah ) after a year
and a half . My friend Jon has a friend who is in some end of the bat bis
and he's hot for me to try out these used but in good shape "Best Power 12v
uninterruptible power system " bats . These are sealed and about 95 lbs.
13"L 7"w 11"h . Of course I tell him that there is a diff between EV bats
and Deep cycle ( as I have just seen) . His friend is hot for me to try
them as he has lots of them and thinks I can move them . So I agree to try 5
of them ($40 each) and figure I'll replace 5 of my worst c31's . I get them
and cycle them with a 3 amp load which I leave on for 3 days and the voltage
is still over 12.3v . At this point its hard to find the 5 worst bats as
they all seem pretty bad . I take them all out and replace the 10 that were
in the back with 10 new golf cart bats that were to go in the Mazda ev ( it
has 20 now but room for 30). So now I got a 120v mix instead of the 240 v I
had before : -( . The most ah I pulled for the c31's was abut 60ah but 50
was really the max most of the time . After a few cycles I pull 75 ah and
with a 75 amp load still see 11volts on them. Jon says they are $300 bats .
I was just trying them to please him but now I don't know what to think . I
have no info on them other than what I've said . so should I get 10 more
Best power at $400 and go 180v sys or 10 more golf carts 120v sys , (maybe
20 yellow tops will fall from the sky). When I put a 300 amp load I don't
see much v drop either :-) They are doing as good as the 6v golf carts.
What would happen If I load them hard 600 to 1000 amps draw (try out that
DCP controller that's going in Paul's car) . ? I would be happy setting
the current limiter to 300 if that's the safe zone and would pull less that
100 amp running.
Steve Clunn
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