EV Digest 2457
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Surplus aircraft nicads
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Question about ammeter with regen
by Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) OT but Energy and Beer Related
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EDISON DISALLOWS CONDUCTIVE CHARGING ON EV TOU METERS!
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Alternator/ motor setup
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Here we go AGAIN! WARNING!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EDISON DISALLOWS CONDUCTIVE CHARGING ON EV TOU METERS!
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Question about ammeter with regen
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EDISON DISALLOWS CONDUCTIVE CHARGING ON EV TOU METERS!
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) 1kW Hydrogen Fuel Cell $5995
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Alternator/ motor setup
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: EDISON DISALLOWS CONDUCTIVE CHARGING ON EV TOU METERS!
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Silent Running
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: 1kW Hydrogen Fuel Cell $5995
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
After some more thought, I guess I was assuming your controller would be
controlling the armature current and the field current but it is possible
that the armature could be connected directly to the batteries and all speed
control done by adjusting the field current. In which case you would be
correct and battery current would always be equal to motor current. You
would also not be able to control the speed all the way down to zero.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Andre Blanchard
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 6:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
Battery amps will be the same a motor amps only at full throttle, you will
have the current multiplication in the armature just like with a series
connection. What you will not have is an automatic increase in field
strength with the increase in motor current. So the amount of torque per
amp will be constant with a fixed field current in the sepex. But there is
nothing that says the sepex controller cannot increase the field current in
proportion to the armature current and get the same performance as a series
type motor and controller. In fact since with the sepex you have
independent control of field and armature current you can make the motor do
anything it your controller and batteries are capable of.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
< snip >
> I'm tenatively planning to limit motor amps to 1000 via a DCP
> controller. Since it'll be sepex, there will be no current
> multiplication, battery amps = motor amps. OK, so for the big
> question, do you racers think Randy's motor is up to 1000 Amps for
> maybe 13 seconds? How many amps could it handle for 60 seconds?
< snip >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got some info back on the MB908 batteries from Surplus Traders.
Sold out.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi-
In my early morning brain fog I'm thinking it might be better to fire the relay
with the
key switch, wiring NC to charge and NO to run
F.T.
David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
> All,
> To automate Father Time's system, use a DPDT relay, actuated by either a
> throttle switch, or the brake-light switch.
>
> >Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 06:54:06 -0800
> >From: Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >Hi-
> >install a dpdt toggle switch from Radio Shack in the lead from the shunt as a
> >reversing switch. I used this system in the race boat to monitor the dump
> >charge.
> >F.T.
> >
> >Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
> >
> >> In my (somewhat limited) experience, driving a VU-style meter backwards with
> >> the same current that would make it read full-scale forwards will not hurt
> >> it at all.
> >>
> >> Diodes have too large of a voltage drop, at least all the diode types I'm
> >> familiar with. Maybe some others will have better commentary on this.
> >>
> >> It is also possible, of course, to get a 'zero-in-the-middle' style ammeter
> >> which will be able to read both regen and drive current. I think they go for
> >> about $100.
> >>
> >> S.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 9:23 AM
> >> Subject: Question about ammeter with regen
> >>
> >> > Hi EVerybody. I've a potential problem. I have an analog ammeter
> >> > (Westach brand) connected across the 500 amp shunt. When I set
> >> > up the regen on my Zapi sem-3 controller (which is currently set
> >> > for minimum regen) am I going to kill the ammeter? My knowledge
> >> > of electronics is limited. Will a bridge rectifier work to keep
> >> > the ammeter showing positive or do diodes require higher voltage
> >> > than the 50 mv shunt will provide? I could just take the
> >> > ammeter out and rely on the e-meter, of course, but it looks cool
> >> > in my dash alongside a similar style voltmeter.
> >> >
> >> > Mike Hoskinson
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Too much soot. The reason I'm converting from LP to NG.
I spend too much time scrubbing pots as it is.
If I could do away with cleaning the outside it would time saved.
Looking into the bio-diesel aspect, though.
Probably require some kind of air pressure> nozzle spray into firebox.
I've gotten all kinds of cool input, including a suggestion for
solar-powered steam generator feeding into a jacketed boil kettle.
Some commercial setups use steam anyway, so if I could make it with solar
that would be SSHWEEET!
No late-night brewing, however.
Thanks again for all the input!
Marv
on 12/5/02 6:08 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:23:58 -0700
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
>
> Why not just run straight vegetable oil? It's a lot cheaper than bio-diesel
> (and no hazardous chemicals) and contains as much energy. Or if you are
> making bio-diesel anyway you could burn the glycerin that's left over.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So Edison finally came out and installed my TOU meter but you're gonna LOVE
this:
They won't allow me to charge my Soleq EVcort on that circuit.
That's right.
They say conductive charging is not allowed within the guidelines of their
EV charging program because, and I quote a Edison rep, "You might go plug
your dryer into that circuit and use that 4˘ per KWH power to do your
laundry, or something".
I feel like I'm in that old movie, "Scanners", and my head is about to
explode.
If anyone out there has any experience dealing with the Edison EV Program in
Southern California and has any suggestions on dealing with this- please
help!
NONE of the materials regarding their EV Program mentions ANY non-compliance
issues with conductive charging. Neither is it mentioned on their website.
I love how their website touts how much they're doing to save the planet
with the EV program, EV this, EV that- but my EV isn't an EV as far as
they're concerned because it doesn't use inductive charging?!?!?
I'm about to go rub some graphite paste on my temples and short out my
battery pack connectors with my head ("Mmmmm....Juicy Fruit")
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
1992 Soleq EVcort
2002 RAV4 EV pending (Hey David Franklin/Hollywood Toyota: Where's my car?)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops sorry, my bad.
Still it appears to me that you are making several invalid assumptions.
A) There is an unlimited supply of Natural Gas
B) There is an infrastructure in place to deliver this gas to every home
C) A significant portion of our nations electricity is generated by burning
Natural Gas.
None of these are true. There isn't enough NG available to heat every home
in this country. Most places in the US would need to have NG trucked in,
there goes most(if not all) of your efficiency advantage. The vast majority
of the electricity generated in this country comes from burning coal,
followed by fuel oil, as I recall NG is way down the list. Burning coal in
every house might be more efficient, but what about the pollution? Besides
it would definitely have to be trucked in to every house so it's probably
not more efficient. Besides I have personally used coal for heating in the
past, it stinks...a lot. I definitely wouldn't want to use it for cooking.
Transferring electricity from an area that uses hydro across country to
other areas costs you efficiency. Trucking NG back costs you even more.
The more people that use NG the more expensive it becomes (supply and
demand).
Now if you live somewhere that has both available at your house, then I
agree with most of your ideas. My last house had electric heat when I moved
in, I paid to have gas run under the street to my house and switched to gas
heat. Saved me about $200 a month during the winter.
However my wife doesn't like gas stoves (she gets headaches) so we stayed
with electric there and in the dryer, the potential energy cost savings for
the dryer didn't equal the additional cost of replacing it in the short
term.
>I did not.
>
>
>> You have of course totally ignored electricity generated by means other
>than
>> burning fuel (I.e. wind, rain, sun and nuclear.)
>>
>> Hydro-electric power is very cheap in some areas and heating with
>> electricity can be cost effective in those places. I think my mom pays
>> $0.05 per kWh.
>>
>
><< snip >>
>
>> > finally turning the generator. Even if you use wind or PV generated
>> > electricity it is a waste because that electricity could be put to much
>> > better use offsetting electricity generated in the thermal plants.
>Unless
>> > you have a small wind or PV system that is off the grid and have no
>other
>> > way of storing the excess energy.
>> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Shipway wrote:
> EVA/DC toured the Electromotive factory a couple of years back, where
> they where building such a system. It was a very smoothly assembled
> system that could be retrofitted onto any vehicle that had the space.
> ... http://www.electromotive-inc.com/hybrid/index.html
Very impressive! Is it 'unobtainium', only available to large OEMs that
pay substantial licensing fees? Or, is it actually available as a
product for small customers (as their website implies)?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
> Can somebody recommend a system, short of trashing the PC and going
> Mac, program that kills this shit, BEFORE it gets into your computer?
Basically, if you use the most popular computer and software, the
hackers and virus-writers will get you. At the moment, that means a
Pentium PC with one of the latest versions of Windows, and Outlook for
your email.
I use a Mac, and have never had a virus on it. I also have a Pentium PC,
but run Windows 3.1 and Netscape; again, I've never had a virus on it.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Dec 2002 at 15:33, Lee Hart wrote:
> hen you are heating the house anyway,
> BTUs from the stove reduce the BTUs from the furnace. Your furnace is
> probably less than 100% efficient, so it takes less energy to heat with
> the stove than with the furnace (regardless of whether it is an electric or
> gas stove).
While the efficiency of an EV usually trumps that of an ICE, it seems a lot
less certain to me that the 100% ^local^ efficiency of resistive heat is
better than the 92% ^local^ efficiency of a good furnace, when the entire
cycle is considered.
Recall that the electricity generation and transmission process are a good
bit less than 100% efficient. If your utility generates electricity from
fossil fuel, you can't ignore the losses; it's not hard to see the point of
those who argue that if one needs heat, it makes sense to burn the fuel
where the heat is needed, not hundreds of miles away. The latter dissipates
a significant part of your heat in the atmosphere and cooling water near the
power plant, and in the transmission wires bringing it to you (which at
least help keep birds' feet warm in the winter <g>).
Of course I don't really know what losses are involved in transmitting
natural gas -- but I really think it's probably efficient to burn it in my
furnace than to heat with electricity generated in, say, southern Ohio from
natural gas. (Actually it's more likely to be coal, unfortunately, since
I've been unsuccessful so far in getting Green Mountain to service my area.)
It would be interesting to calculate whether the "over unity" <g> effect of
using a heat pump makes up for the generation and transmission losses.
Of course if your power mix is largely hydro, wind, or solar, it's a
different story.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Dec 2002 at 7:45, Marvin Campbell wrote:
> So Edison finally came out and installed my TOU meter but you're gonna LOVE
> this:
>
> They won't allow me to charge my Soleq EVcort on that circuit.
>
So did they put a lock on all the j-boxes in the circuit? If not, what's to
stop you from doing some rewiring once they've installed everything they
require and driven their SUVs back to the SCE office?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sharkey wrote:
> Well, after being chastized about my strenuous position concerning
> applying solder to pressure-connecterized stranded wiring, I'm a
> little reluctant to even suggest that I could offer a solution to
> this problem...
Sharkey, you have nothing to worry about. Your comments were perfectly
OK; they were just stated a bit more definitively than most. So, some of
the replies just responded in kind.
Like all email lists, EV list responses can get a little heated at
times. We all just have to develop the right callouses to protect our
tender egos. (Ask for some flame-proof underwear for Christmas :-)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok I may have gotten a little carried away with the NG. Coal is nasty stuff
and best burnt in a larger furnace with the best available pollution
controls. But those up graded pollution controls do not seem to be
happening very quickly. Natural Gas or a methane, hydrogen, carbon monoxide
mixture can be made from local organic matter and has been in the past.
Something just does not feel right about using a very high grade high cost
form of energy like electricity to provide low grade low temp heat, there
has to be a better way.
Most of the houses in towns in my area do seem to have NG available. I live
well out of town and heat solely with wood cut on my own land, I can not see
myself living any other way.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of VanDerWal, Peter MSgt
> Oops sorry, my bad.
>
> Still it appears to me that you are making several invalid assumptions.
> A) There is an unlimited supply of Natural Gas
> B) There is an infrastructure in place to deliver this gas to every home
> C) A significant portion of our nations electricity is generated by
burning
> Natural Gas.
>
> None of these are true. There isn't enough NG available to heat every
home
> in this country. Most places in the US would need to have NG trucked in,
> there goes most(if not all) of your efficiency advantage. The vast
majority
> of the electricity generated in this country comes from burning coal,
> followed by fuel oil, as I recall NG is way down the list. Burning coal
in
> every house might be more efficient, but what about the pollution?
Besides
> it would definitely have to be trucked in to every house so it's probably
> not more efficient. Besides I have personally used coal for heating in the
> past, it stinks...a lot. I definitely wouldn't want to use it for
cooking.
>
> Transferring electricity from an area that uses hydro across country to
> other areas costs you efficiency. Trucking NG back costs you even more.
> The more people that use NG the more expensive it becomes (supply and
> demand).
>
> Now if you live somewhere that has both available at your house, then I
> agree with most of your ideas. My last house had electric heat when I
moved
> in, I paid to have gas run under the street to my house and switched to
gas
> heat. Saved me about $200 a month during the winter.
> However my wife doesn't like gas stoves (she gets headaches) so we stayed
> with electric there and in the dryer, the potential energy cost savings
for
> the dryer didn't equal the additional cost of replacing it in the short
> term.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder what the efficiency difference is between the conductive and
inductive connections especially if you include the cost/energy of the
equipment required. Seems to me if they are requiring you use a system that
costs more and wastes more energy they really only want the good PR of
offering the program, but they would rather that you did not actually take
advantage of the program.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Marvin Campbell
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EDISON DISALLOWS CONDUCTIVE CHARGING ON EV TOU METERS!
So Edison finally came out and installed my TOU meter but you're gonna LOVE
this:
They won't allow me to charge my Soleq EVcort on that circuit.
That's right.
They say conductive charging is not allowed within the guidelines of their
EV charging program because, and I quote a Edison rep, "You might go plug
your dryer into that circuit and use that 4˘ per KWH power to do your
laundry, or something".
I feel like I'm in that old movie, "Scanners", and my head is about to
explode.
If anyone out there has any experience dealing with the Edison EV Program in
Southern California and has any suggestions on dealing with this- please
help!
NONE of the materials regarding their EV Program mentions ANY non-compliance
issues with conductive charging. Neither is it mentioned on their website.
I love how their website touts how much they're doing to save the planet
with the EV program, EV this, EV that- but my EV isn't an EV as far as
they're concerned because it doesn't use inductive charging?!?!?
I'm about to go rub some graphite paste on my temples and short out my
battery pack connectors with my head ("Mmmmm....Juicy Fruit")
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
1992 Soleq EVcort
2002 RAV4 EV pending (Hey David Franklin/Hollywood Toyota: Where's my car?)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I received an email from Coleman about its new fuel
cell system. I could imagine this being used soon on
some of our cars.
Did somebody say fuel cell vehicles are decades away?!
;)
http://www.airgen.com/
Some simple specs:
MODEL NO. FC01001
POWER 1000 Continuous Watts
OVERLOAD CAPACITY 1600 VA for 2 Seconds
VOLTS 120 VAC +/-3%
FREQUENCY 60 Hertz
WAVEFORM Perfect Sine-Wave
NOISE 65 dba @ 1 Meter
FUEL CELL Ballard NexaTM Power Module
SURGE PROTECTION 360 Joules
BATTERIES Sealed Lead Acid
WEIGHT (LESS FUEL) 101 lbs.
DIMENSIONS 27.3" x 15.8" x 19"
UL APPROVED Yes
CSA APPROVED Yes
WARRANTY 1 Year
Ed Ang
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doesn't the Insight do this, too?
I always thought it would be cool to have a alternator that turned
motor for a burst of acceleration. You could probably sell thousands
of such things to hotrodders.
--- Michael Shipway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jay Donnaway wrote:
> >
> > Reading the discussion on alternator inefficiency and an
> alternator's low
> > power when used as a motor; what's to stop one from rigging your
> own
> > parallel hybrid by replacing the ICE's alternator with a DC
> motor/generator
> > such as the 6.7" Advanced DC motor, and then using a DC-DC
> converter/charger
> > and battery to power 12v accessories? (a a homemade version of
> Honda's
> > Intergrated Motor Asssist).
> >
> > On a simpler note, is anyone aware of a plug-in hybrid conversion
> that added
> > the DC motor to an ICE via an accessory drive belt?
> >
> > Jay Donnaway
> > Atlanta, Ga
>
> EVA/DC toured the Electromotive factory a couple of years back,
> where
> they where building such a system.
> It was a very smoothly assembled system that could be retrofitted
> onto
> any vehicle that had the space.
> They used an electric motor rated at 10% of the ICE.
> It replaced the alternator and starter and was connected with a
> toothed
> belt.
> They where flipping the motor from generator mode on each ICE power
> stroke to motor mode on each compression stroke. This smoothed the
> engine vibration so much that I couldn't feel the engine speed in
> the
> shift stick like I normally do. They said that theoretically you
> could
> reduce the flywheel if you where sure the softwere would never ever
> fail. They are realists and therefore they leave the flywheel
> alone.
> By moving the line between the two states, they'd get either a net
> charging or discharging of the batteries (16ah Hawker Genesis on
> the one
> we saw).
> The hatchback I test drove (maybe a Ford Fiesta?) it had tremendous
> acceleration and enough starting torque to chirp the tires. They
> where
> getting over 60 mpg if I remember right.
>
> http://www.electromotive-inc.com/hybrid/index.html
>
> --
> Michael Shipway
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
=====
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre
don't know where you live.
Wood is just as bad as coal.
I'm not just being prejudiced.
the polutants from it are terrible unless
a catalist is used or a water wash on the effluent.
Where I am in the woods of midstate NY
Electric is the best.
Heat pump in a 1500 sq ft all electric house.
Our cost is less than $120 per month
on a 10 month cost budget.
and all polution is centralized
where it can be more easily delt with
My 2c
Pete
12/5/02 11:47:30 AM, "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Ok I may have gotten a little carried away with the NG. Coal is nasty stuff
>and best burnt in a larger furnace with the best available pollution
>controls. But those up graded pollution controls do not seem to be
>happening very quickly. Natural Gas or a methane, hydrogen, carbon monoxide
>mixture can be made from local organic matter and has been in the past.
>Something just does not feel right about using a very high grade high cost
>form of energy like electricity to provide low grade low temp heat, there
>has to be a better way.
>
>Most of the houses in towns in my area do seem to have NG available. I live
>well out of town and heat solely with wood cut on my own land, I can not see
>myself living any other way.
>
>Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
>Isaac Newton
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
>Behalf Of VanDerWal, Peter MSgt
>
>> Oops sorry, my bad.
>>
>> Still it appears to me that you are making several invalid assumptions.
>> A) There is an unlimited supply of Natural Gas
>> B) There is an infrastructure in place to deliver this gas to every home
>> C) A significant portion of our nations electricity is generated by
>burning
>> Natural Gas.
snip
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, you got it right both ways -- you could do it with current
multiplication, or do it with none. I haven't totally settled on a
control system. If the idle speed were not too high, I would not mind
slipping the clutch to take off. This could be as simple as a
variable resistor in the field. At the high end, I could use two
controllers, one for the field and one for the armature.
--- Andre Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After some more thought, I guess I was assuming your controller
> would be
> controlling the armature current and the field current but it is
> possible
> that the armature could be connected directly to the batteries and
> all speed
> control done by adjusting the field current. In which case you
> would be
> correct and battery current would always be equal to motor current.
> You
> would also not be able to control the speed all the way down to
> zero.
=====
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As a little kid, I remember seeing an ad for electrifying a VW bug. I
recall thinking it would not go very far or fast on the two batteries
pictured (didn't occur to me then there were more batteries
elsewhere). Then I found out about the EV1 prototype, and thought
wow, an electric car could work. Then, somehow, I found this list
online. Those John Wayland posts of wheelspin are what really made me
want my own EV! Eco and fast, does life get any better than that?
Getting back to some of John's comments:
Workshop is a great thing. Big mistake to not build it first when I
got the house. I'm glad I have done it before tearing into the
conversion in a big way. I now have an air compressor for the first
time, that's been great. I didn't think as big as John with plugs,
but did put a 30 Amp RV plug outside, and two 50 amp plugs on a 60
amp circuit inside -- so now there is another "friendly plug" 20
miles South of Salt Lake City.
Regarding twin motors: I have considered it, and decided to go with
one for several reasons:
One is cheaper
One is lighter and smaller -- more room for batteries
One is easier to attach
One is quieter (minor consideration)
One hopefully keeps the CG lower for better cornering
Two get less stressed
Two seems to be the NEDRA trick of late
I'm hoping that going sepex helps with the last two points. I think
alot of the stress the motors get is from current multiplication.
Getting the same torque for less motor current I'm hoping gives good
power without fireballing.
This discussion reminds me, I'd better get the car titled in my name.
Be a real shame to build an electric car that belonged to someone
else!
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> David Dymaxion wrote:
>
> > Time for me to quit punching keys and start twisting wrenches.
> > Actually, I have already been twisting wrenches, I recently got
> my
> > garage workshop done and electrified (two 50 Amps plugs just
> waiting
> > to charge an EV, and lights).
>
> I'm loving this post already! David, I feel your excitement coming
> through the phone line
> and jumping out of my computer. I hope your completed shop brings
> you as much pleasure as
> mine has to me.
>
> It was the Fall of '91 when I was building my backyard EV shop,
> with visions of having it
> all finished someday with friends coming by with assorted EVs in
> need of a charge. I had
> done all the wiring myself, of course, and to quote my certified
> electrician friend, "You
> really should have a clear PlexiGlas cover on that breaker panel,
> the wiring's so
> 'pretty'. I envisioned all the loads I might want to power up, and
> wired the place
> accordingly...twin 50 amp 240vac outlets each wired with 6 gauge,
> two locations with
> dedicated outdoor outlets with one at the shop driveway gate and
> one close to the shop
> door, and lots more of 120vac outlets with dedicated 20 amp
> breakers. I fed the place with
> beefy 2 gauge. I had also rewired the entire house, so there are
> even more outdoor EV
> charging outlets on dedicated breakers...there's one at the
> backyard deck, that
> coincidentally, is close enough to the shop driveway to serve as an
> extra EV socket, and
> there's one out front at the main driveway for charging up EVs over
> there, too. Of course,
> my wife thinks I put them there for running Christmas lights :-)
> ...but, she know really
> knows better.
>
> Today, the Wayland EV Juice Bar (so named by Geoff Shepherd)
> regularly charges up the
> Wayland EVs, but more importantly, it is routinely visited by all
> sorts of interesting
> EVs....multiple Sparrows, three different electric Datsun pickups,
> an electrified Fiat, an
> electric Prism, electric motorcycles, electric Vegi-vans, electric
> scooters, and too many
> electric drag machines to list! The place really gets interesting
> when ragged EV drag
> racers from all parts of the country show up for the Woodburn drags
> with the coolest
> machines on the planet, and they're all 'sucking amps'.
>
> >
> >
> >> I'm slowly converting my Porsche to electric power. I want to be
> able to throw as much
> >> power as 20 to 28 Optimas can dish out at the motor, if I
> can...regular Waylandesque
> >> posts to the EVDL about surprising gassers.
> >
>
> Yeah, now you're talking! It really is great sport.
>
> >
> > I hear the stock Kostov is not very robust.
>
> Well, it is, and it isn't. If you run it under 'normal' EV loads,
> they're really just
> fine. In fact, an 11 inch Kostov requires less amperage to make
> the same torque as a
> stock 9 inch ADC, so you end up hitting it with less current on
> average. Using a large
> Kostov with a tranny and a regular 400-600 amp type of controller,
> I doubt you'd have any
> reliability problems.
>
>
> > Randy Holmquist sells a
> > rewound, banded, and rebrushed Kostov for $1600.
>
> Randy doesn't do anything in a less than robust and quality
> way...his craftsman-like
> workmanship and the pride he takes in what he does is impressive.
> I'd think you'd be well
> served by a motor he has either worked on himself, or had made to
> his specs.
>
>
> > Warp sells what sounds like an indestructible "Kostov" (in
> quotes, it is so rebuilt
> > it should probably be called something different), modified to go
> > ~8500 rpm, with big GE brushes, rewound, etc. They put 1400 Amps
> > through them in their dragster. They also have a racing warranty
> for
> > 1 rebuild, no questions asked.
>
> The good folks at NetGain and I had a good relationship and worked
> together as a team for
> a while. I certainly won't try to take all the credit here, but I
> will say that I was
> directly involved with the concept of hot-rodded Kostovs and other
> Warp motors made to
> specs I outlined originally. I had toured the Warfield facility in
> Illinois and hand
> picked coms., brush riggings, armature configurations, etc. and
> worked with them to beef
> up my Kostov. After all of our mods, my supped up Kosty made some
> serious power, and
> running without a transmission and spinning directly into a Ford
> nine inch rear end with
> at that time, 4:11 gears, it pushed White Zombie to a world record
> best ET of 13.1 seconds
> at 99+ mph for the 1/4 mile (with friend Rich Brown at the wheel as
> his birthday present).
> The Kosty held up for another year after that, but finally gave up
> the ghost at the
> Woodburn drags when I melted the armature windings...damn, that
> 'Zilla can crank out BIG
> amps!
>
> I now run with two Warp 8 inch motors, models that I had helped to
> create. Even these
> motors have been updated, so contacting NetGain might be a good
> idea to see how they've
> tweaked them since when I was around.
>
> I am no longer part of NetGain, but they have done much more in
> regards to further tweaks
> to the Kostov. I know they monitor this list, so hopefully they can
> send an email and give
> details. Their current Warp version of the Kostov would make a
> killer street EV motor, I'm
> sure.
>
> >
> > I like the interpoles on the Kostov, seems they handle high
> voltage
> > and regen better than Advanced DC from what I've heard.
>
> When my pack of Hawkers were at full power, I saw 260V at the motor
> terminals at speeds
> just over 100 mph (after I had crossed the finish line and had kept
> my foot into a bit
> longer)...absolutely no evidence of arcing at all.
>
>
>
> > OK, so for the big question, do you racers think Randy's motor is
> up to 1000 Amps for
> > maybe 13 seconds? How many amps could it handle for 60 seconds?
>
> Ask Randy, and take his word, it's as good as gold, in my opinion.
>
> >
> > So the basic question is, is Randy's motor up to the punishment
> of
> > racing? Or should I bite the bullet and get the Warp?
>
> Both motors would probably work fine, the Warp version probably has
> more beefed up items,
> but Randy has more experience, I believe, when it comes to running
> it as a sep ex type.
>
> >Am I missing any alternatives?
>
> Yes. You could also run twin motors, such as twin 8's or 9's.
> Running them in series will
> give you huge off the line torque, and running them in series will
> also keep them very
> happy at high voltages, as each motor sees half the delivered motor
> circuit voltage.
> Though my car hasn't quite matched the best time it ran with the
> big single Kostov, the
> real reason is because its now 5 year old battery pack has lost
> most of its power. After
> its record run and after that day where Rich and I really baked the
> batteries, they never
> made that kind of power again, it was all down hill. Just before
> the Kosty's armature
> melted, the best ET's were slipping towards high 13's again. When I
> went to the twin 8's
> but with everything else the same, the car ran mid 13s even with
> sagging batteries. I
> later went to a lower rear end ratio of 4:54 and the launch was
> terrific, but the
> batteries had continued to loose stamina, so the ET's never really
> improved. I feel that
> with a fresh battery pack, or maybe even a heftier pack with more
> guts, the twin 8 setup
> and other improvements will eventually get the car into the 12's. I
> ran 408V at the last
> Woodburn, but that increase only helped keep the car in the 13's
> with the pack all but
> done for these days...it's amazing to me, that I've been able to
> keep
=== message truncated ===
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You might also want to check out the vehicles at your Ford or GM dealer.
I'm not sure if any other manufacturers offer these yet, but there's a new
child restraint system that essentially offers steel loops at either side of
the car seat, down at seat level. New generation child car seats have a
single belt that connects and tightens at these point. Thus, dealing with
taking the slack out of a three-point belt is no longer an issue. Something
similar could probably also be employed in an EV, and would probably be a
safer "DIY" than trying to install a seat and three-point belt to work
safely with a child seat.
Tim
From : "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To :
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject : Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
Date : Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:49:12 -0800
I work part-time as a firefighter - so I am a fan of belts and special
seats. However..... In my ambulance, the jump seat is specially made so
that
the seat back folds down and it becomes a car seat for a child, just in
case
I need one. (Not an infant - it is a sit up straight thing). If that was an
option in the back seat of my car, you BET I would buy it....
Now, if you could put one or two of those into the rear of your EV - you
might be set.
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I think you need a universal inductive plug for your charger and all of the
230V appliances
in your home :-)
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On 5 Dec 2002 at 10:47, Andre Blanchard wrote:
> I live
> well out of town and heat solely with wood cut on my own land, I can not see
> myself living any other way.
We're really fortunate that some of us can do this in North America. Much
of the rest of the world doesn't have the luxury of the wide open spaces
that we have.
South Korea, for example, was literally denuded of forests by many years of
Japanese occupation, followed by the Korean War. After the war they mounted
an intensive reforestation campaign, and it's still illegal to burn wood
there without special permission. Not that many Koreans could anyway, since
the country's total land mass is about the same as Indiana's, and most
people live in highrise apartments.
There are many parts of Europe which are similar -- "country living" is only
for the farmers and the very wealthy.
What I don't yet fully understand is why, when so many Europeans live in
cities, they can't get enthusiastic about EVs. Maybe it's partly because
hardly anybody has a garage, but I'm sure that's not the whole story. (Some
of this has been discussed recently by a couple of our European
correspondents. That information has helped me understand to some extent.
Thanks folks.)
David Roden
Akron, Ohio, USA
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The question can arise whether with the development of such tech-
nological means of communication as radio, film, and the daily
press, freedom of thought is possible at all. Does this not mean
constant infection with whatever ideas are in circulation?
-- Czeslaw Milosz, 1942
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From : Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject : Re: Silent Running
Date : Wed, 04 Dec 2002 09:38:08 -0800
John Force at launch comes to mind.... and that sound from a Ford
Fiesta????
I'd be cool with a bell I could run manually in crowded spaces. Like a nice
EMD-locomotive-sounding bell, not a bicycle bell.
On the other hand, a user-selectable speed-sensitive "Jetson's" sound would
be cool too. Or for driving in the Bay Area, a BART train sound. :-)
Tim
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Hmm, I wonder how much Ballard would charge for just the PEM fuel cell?
If Coleman is selling the whole 1KW UPS for $6,000 then I'll bet the 1KW
fuel cell is only about $2,000-$3,000.
That would indicate that a 10 KW fuel cell for under $20,000 is possible in
the near future.
Of course there is always the possibility that these fuel cells can't handle
the bouncing and vibration from a moving vehicle.
>I received an email from Coleman about its new fuel
>cell system. I could imagine this being used soon on
>some of our cars.
>
>Did somebody say fuel cell vehicles are decades away?!
>;)
>
>http://www.airgen.com/
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Hi Lee.
From : Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject : Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
Date : Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:33:04 -0800
If you are air conditioning, then the electric stove is a better choice
than gas, because essentially 100% of the heat it produces goes into
whatever you are cooking. Gas stoves have lots of waste heat that only
heats the kitchen; bad news when you are air conditiong, because you pay
double; once to produce the excess heat, and again to pump it out of the
house.
There are two problems with electric stovetops: first, they heat most
efficiently through conduction; i.e. a metal pot touching the burner. If
you have a warped pot, or an odd-shaped pan, you tend to get uneven heating.
Second, they take forever to heat up, and once they're heated up, they'll
stay heated up for long after you turn off the burner. A boilover of oil
can be prevented on a gas stove by turning off the burner, but
on an electric burner, the burner is still red-hot, causing the oil to spill
over and catch fire. (Ask me how I know.) Plus, after you've removed the
food from the burner, you're still heating the house.
Electric water heaters generally have better insulation than gas water
heaters (because electricity costs more than gas). The extra insulation
means the total energy used by an electric water heater is less. Of
course, you pay more for this energy (because gas is dirt cheap). PS"
Getting rid of the standing pilot in a water heater does not save
energy; even the heat from the pilot light heats water, and so isn't
wasted.
Gas water heaters have to vent their gases outside the house. Since you
can't prevent some heat from going out with it, that sounds like another
strike against energy efficiency in gas water heaters.
The situation for clothes dryers is similar. Gas dryers use more BTUs
worth of energy to produce the same amount of heat (because they use
fairly low efficiency burners), but those BTUs cost you less than
electricity. If the dryer is not vented outside, it helps in winter but
hinders when air conditioning. If the dryer is vented outside (most
are), then gas dryers simply cost less but use more energy.
I wish there was a cheap and energy-efficient way to get the moisture out of
vented air. My electric dryer has to be vented outside, lest the house turn
into a sauna, and in the winter, you can see the heat being wasted.
Tim
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