EV Digest 2523
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charging questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Charging questions
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(KAZ EV students mugged in Detroit)-long
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN(?Could anti SUV campaign push for hybrids & EVs?)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Successful Hybrid Conversion
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Range
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) daewoo, gliders
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: gimme a brake ...
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Successful Hybrid Conversion - getting OT
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Russian cars, Sentra's an' Stuff NOW email posting funk
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: electric breadbasket/new catch phrase.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Trojan battery caps
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Charging questions
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Dumpster diving
by Jay Donnaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Trojan battery caps
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: OT: Driver training
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Driver Training
by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Charging questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
George Tylinski wrote:
> Yes, this is the "right" way to do it. Though your algorithm would
> still need numbers (how much gassing is enough, how much temperature
> rise is too much, etc.).
Yes, ultimately it does bump into the real world, and numbers are
needed. However, my point was that nitpicking over some precise limit
(float voltage should be 14v? 13.7v? 13.675?) doesn't really buy us
anything. It adds needless precision and cost to a charger, without
necessarily making it work any better in the real world.
The limits in the algorithm I described are based on changes from a base
value, not absolute limits. So, it doesn't matter if your temperature
sensor is poor, as long as it can still tell you when the temperature is
increasing. The algorithm work regardless of whether the temperature
increase is 5 deg.F or 10 deg.F (a 2:1 error).
> It would be great if each battery block came with a standardized
> internal temp sensor. Without a standard, not a penny is likely to
> be spent adding any kind of sensors.
Well, sensors are pretty cheap. A plain old 3 cent silicon diode makes a
pretty good temperature sensor.
> Once you get inside the battery, there may be a different way to detect
> gassing or impending gassing, chemically? Other than lighting a match?
> Gassing rate (net?) is different than H2 concentration.
Yes, there are a lot of ways. An actual pressure transducer, of course.
Luckily, cars use them by the millions, so there are some cheap ones.
Or, a thermistor inside the cell that you apply power to and measure the
self-heating. Hydrogen is about the best gas there is for cooling, so
the more there is, the less the temperature rise on that sensor. Or just
a thin spont on the case that bulges up when the internal pressure gets
high enough (Bill Dube' came up with that one).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> > I have found that leaving the solar panel on for 5 to 10 min is
> > all that's needed to put the low ones higher that the high ones.
>
> Must be a big panel!
70 watts . I leave it on the 12v sys bat most of the time so as not to
throw out of ballance the pack . I would think that your automatic sys
would bounce around quite a bit? do you have a way of telling what bat the
BMS is charging (led ) .
(thanks for the motor insite)
> -- > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(KAZ EV students mugged in Detroit)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.detnow.com/news/0301081701.html
Students Visiting Auto Show Robbed Inside Hotel Room
Reported by Kristin Smith
Web produced by Kelly Reynolds [EMAIL PROTECTED]
These two Japanese students were robbed while staying at a
hotel in downtown Detroit. Video
http://real.scripps.com:8480/ramgen/archive/wxyz/2003/0301081701.rm
Visitors from around the world are in Detroit for the auto
show, but two students who came all the way from Japan
didn't get a very warm welcome. They were robbed and
assaulted by armed suspects who busted into their hotel
room.
This is the kind of thing that fuels the rest of the world's
negative perception about our city. These Japanese students
were here for the auto show, part of a larger group, staying
at a hotel in not the best part of town, and it's there
police believe the suspects targeted the students and
decided they'd be an easy mark.
They traveled all the way from Tokyo to show off an electric
car at the North American International Auto Show. But it's
what the Japanese college students witnessed at the Detroit
Days Inn that they will always remember.
"Very scared, never had this kind of experience before,"
said Tomiaki Katayama.
The Japanese students were in town to show off this electric
car.
[ http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=electric+kaz ]
It was after 10:00 p.m. Tuesday night when police say two
armed men kicked in the door of room 35, assaulted,
stripped, and robbed the two young men. The thieves took off
with a cell phone and more than 80,000 Yen, about $1,000
U.S.
Armed robbery investigators believe that surveillance video
from the ATM next door will show the thieves thwarted
attempt to get cash from the victims stolen credit card.
"They asked our credit card number, but we didn't have it,
so we had to make it up," Katayama said.
"I think they were looking for, you know, some people they
could prey upon, and they saw these guys and they took
advantage of them," said Ira Todd, Detroit Police.
But it didn't take long for detectives to track down the
suspects. The two armed robbers and three other people,
including a mother and daughter, were at the Greektown and
Motor City casinos. Police arrested all five after they
tried to exchange Yen for U.S. currency.
"We have a real good city here, and we can't stop the crime,
but we can catch them and prosecute them," Todd said.
"What do you think of our city now?" Channel 7's Kristin
Smith asked Katayama said.
"Well, well, very scary. But some people are nice."
Katayama said that includes members of the armed robbery
unit who did recover some of the stolen Yen and a gun that
may have been used in the crime. Investigators also
recovered that evidence in a house on a street just behind
the hotel where one of the suspects lives. All five of the
suspects are in custody and could be charged as early as
Thursday.
In the meantime, the Japanese students say they're going to
finish their visit to Detroit, but they're going to stay at
a hotel in Windsor.
Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick
You can get robbed anywhere, but Detroit Mayor Kwame
Kilpatrick is hoping the robbery won't scare other visitors
away from Detroit. He wants to make sure this doesn't give
the city a bad image at a time when so many people are in
town for the auto show.
"This is an isolated incident. It was so unfortunate that it
did happen in the city. But it's safe, and people can come
down here and enjoy themselves. It wasn't around the auto
show per se, it was out from that place, but we just want
people to know that it's absolutely safe, come enjoy
yourself and have a good time downtown Detroit."
All material � 2001 WXYZ-TV Scripps Howard Broadcasting
Company. All Rights Reserved.
===
http://www.clickondetroit.com/det/news/stories/news-187668520030108-120153.html
Robbed, Beaten Students Retreat To Canada
Three Men, One Woman Taken Into Custody
Posted: 12:06 p.m. EST January 8, 2003
Updated: 1:10 p.m. EST January 8, 2003
Two Japanese students in town for the auto show were beaten
and robbed in their hotel room Tuesday night. Video
http://cf.clickondetroit.com/det/sh/videoplayer/video.cfm?id=1876867&owner=det
Students Recover From Frightening Night
The students were in their hotel room at the Days Inn on
Jefferson Ave. in Detroit when they heard a knock at the
door, Local 4 reported.
Detroit police believe that two armed men came through the
front door of room 35 at around 10 p.m. carrying a gun and
demanding money.
The two men forced the students to strip off their clothes
and stay in the bathroom, while the robbers rummaged through
their belongings.
The men reportedly stole 10,000 yen, $200 in U.S. dollars
and two Visa cards from the students.
Detroit Police say three men and one woman were taken into
custody at the Greektown and Motor City casinos.
During one of the arrests, the suspect reportedly dropped
7,000 in yen on the floor as casino security guards
approached him.
Local residents expressed concern that the attack would give
the students the wrong impresssion of the city of Detroit.
"I hope the world don't see it as this ... and I don't
believe they will because the spirit of Detroit is greater
than what happened this morning," said Jerry Johnson, a
Detroit resident.
The students were in town to present an electric car they
developed at the Detroit Auto Show.
The Japanese students will be escorted by police to a hotel
in Canada, where they will be remaining for the rest of
their stay.
Previous Stories:
* January 8, 2003: Couple Accused Of Laundering Yen At Casino
[
http://www.clickondetroit.com/det/news/stories/news-187608220030108-080140.html
]
Copyright 2003 by ClickOnDetroit.com. All rights reserved.
[ http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22Avoid+Being+Robbed%22 ]
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(?Could anti SUV campaign push for hybrids & EVs?)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.clickondetroit.com/det/news/stories/news-187825720030108-190156.html
Activists Say SUVs Fund Terrorists
Major Automakers Counter With Hybrids
Posted: 8:21 p.m. EST January 8, 2003
Updated: 11:58 p.m. EST January 8, 2003
Local automakers are under fire in a new advertising
campaign that claims SUV drivers are funding terrorists.
ANTI-SUV CAMPAIGN Video
http://cf.clickondetroit.com/det/sh/videoplayer/video.cfm?id=1878236&owner=det
See Controversial Ads, Automaker Response
Hollywood anti-SUV activist Arianna Huffington -- a
self-proclaimed former SUV driver -- says the nation's
dependency on foreign oil helps fund Middle East
terrorists.
Huffington and her group believe that the purchase and
manufacturing of SUVs must stop, Local 4 reported.
The advertisements come at a bad time for automakers, who
are busy displaying new and improved SUVs at Detroit's Auto
Show, Local 4 reported.
Car executives claim that consumers want SUVs, and that the
vehicles are some of the best-selling vehicles in the
world.
"If there's going to be a market out there ... we want to
participate. That's what we're all about, is trying to
provide consumers with choice and what they really want,"
said Gary Cowger, General Motors North American President.
The people who put the ads together plan to run them in
Hollywood and in Detroit.
WDIV-TV General Manager Joseph Berwanger turned the ads down
after seeing the script.
"I just think the practice of implying ... that these people
are aiding terrorists because they bought an SUV is
ridiculous," Berwanger said.
Major automakers believe the intention of the campaign is to
push for more hybrid vehicles on the road, Local 4
reported.
Automakers claim the group is behind the curve on their
accusations, as they are already working on hybrids and plan
to have them on the road either this year or next year.
Copyright 2003 by ClickOnDetroit.com. All rights reserved.
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--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Jan 2003 at 11:18, VanDerWal, Peter MSgt wrote:
> What's in your garage?
All of my outdoor power tools are electric:
GE electric tractor (with mower, blade, sweeper, snowthrower, & tiller)
New Idea electric riding mower
Black & Decker electric push mower
Toro electric string trimmer
Flowtron electric chipper shredder
Black & Decker electric leaf blower / vacuum
Mantis electric cultivator
Remington electric chainsaw
And I don't have a milliliter of gasoline in my garage -- don't need it. I
don't even own a gas can. I do have a lot of extension cords, though!
Recently I had to set a large number of fenceposts, so I rented a posthole
digger. It was powered by a noisy, stinky 2-stroke engine. It'd been years
since I'd used anything like that, and it gave me a renewed appreciation for
the clean, quiet, reliable peformance I get from the electric tools. Hmm,
wonder where I can find an electric fencepost digger ...
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Jan 2003 at 15:04, Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
> Hmmm. And I thought that battery powered cars didn't have enough range
> for the car companies.
> -------------------
>... The FCV is able to travel 150
> kilometers (about 93 miles) without needing to refill its 1.8-kilogram
> compressed hydrogen fuel storage tank.
>
Yeah, how come this "journalist" didn't write "able to travel ONLY 150 km
(just 93 miles) without a LENGTHY, EXPENSIVE, TIME CONSUMING refill of its
HEAVY, BULKY hydrogen tank"?
Ever notice that the news writers always used the qualifying "ONLY" with
EVs? In fact, didn't one of them recently say an NiMH EV1 could "ONLY" go
150 miles on a charge? If this were an EV and had a 200 mile range, they
still would have written it that way. Heck, even 300 miles probably
wouldn't be enough for these guys. But this is a fool cell, and Detroit is
"behind" it, so limited range is no problem at all!
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
>> I think Daewoo must be quite enthusiastic about EVs - they've provided
>> gliders to Solectria in the past.
>
> Were those the gliders for the Flash mini-trucks? They were sold as NEVs
> and 45+ mph off-road vehicles because they didn't have FMVSS certification.
> A pity, since these mini-pickup chassis (though an old design) are pretty
> versatile. They have ^huge^ beds for their size, and can (and do) carry
> just about anything.
>
> http://www2.ald.net/~roden/korea/album/vtruck.htm
Good vehicle. I hadn't heard of those, actually the car I was thinking of was
(possibly) made into one variety of the Force - it was a copy of an old Opel
body.
> Also, I'm pretty sure that ATT, which has shown a reportedly nice prototype
> electric car at various venues, was founded by ex-Daewoo people.
Haven't heard of them at all, any more info?
>> They have a nice 4-door city car here in the UK
>> (750 cc 3cyl engine!) which I thought would make a good compact conversion,
>> with the right batteries. http://www.mymatiz.com/ for picture.
>
> The Matiz is indeed pretty tiny. I think you'd have trouble cramming in
> enough batteries, though. The older Tico, with more squareish lines, might
> be easier to fit. http://www2.ald.net/~roden/korea/photos/tico.htm
I guess so. I was thinking brand new gliders with li-ion battery packs though,
dreaming as usual :)
>> Do you get
>> these in the States?
>
> No. I wish we did. The US has no real minicars at all, unless you count
> the BMW Mini, which though small is a good bit bloated from the English
> original.
Yes, it's almost as big as the new Beetle. Still, all this hopefully leaves
the door wide open for Rick's Tango :)
>> One downside - Daewoo were recently bought by GM!
>
> A major bummer, IMO. Too bad Fiat pulled out of the bidding, but I think
> both they and Ford got scared when they saw the magnitude of Daewoo Motor's
> economic problems. They had a ^lot^ of debt.
>
> Speaking of Daewoo and their problems -- automakers all over the world are
> enthusiastic about SUVs as their "saviors" because they have such a high
> profit margin. Daewoo had a good grip on that market in Korea, with both
> the Jeep-like Korando and the enormous, lumbering (and popular) Musso from
> the Daewoo-owned truck maker Sssangyong, but they went bankrupt anyway. Go
> figure.
The Sssangyong Musso has to be one of the most awful looking vehicles ever
built - I don't understand how people can drive these things, never mind part
with actual money for them!
EVan.
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--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
> Please tell me more on Rabbit brakes. I'm running Jetta Rear
drums on my
> Rabbit, tad bigger thasn the stock ones, am looking at discs
from a wrecked
> Cabrolet, my local VW garu has ,and is parting out. They ARE
bigger, and
> need a 14 inch wheel to accomodate the larger size. Sooo, new
wheels, an
> tires all around,or at least in front. Do I really want to run
13's in back
> an' 14's in front. Different size tires, an' all that. Havent
dove into
> THAT yet. Where do you get Carbon Kevlar Pads an' shoes? Who is
Porterfield.
> A car shop or manufacturer of replacment brake parts?
I'll have to dig up the Porterfield catalog in the dusty catalog
shelf tomorrow. It's not something I want to do right now before
hitting the hay. They are a manufacturer of replacement and
racing brake pads. The carbon-kevlar street linings and shoes
are from Porterfield, about $80 as I recall for two pairs of
shoes (driver/passenger) on the rear of the Rabbit.
Wouldn't feel real good about having 13" wheels on one end and
14" on the other end.
>
> I have a pretty decent parking brake, but sure can't squeal
the rear
> tires with 14 T 145's riding in back! If the rotors and drums
wear out
> faster, Oh Well, they are dirt cheap to replace, worth it for
better breaks!
I only have a 1050lb battery pack (lot less lead, less range,
less weight). The Yellow Banana weighs in the range 2900-3000
lb. When I first had it running as an electric, it was on the
scales at 2940lbs. Probably up to about 3000 or a tad less now,
considering a 45-lb full-length bellypan assembly got added in
2001. Have plans for lightening that up by 10 or 20 lbs.
Lighter aux battery now. Hmm.
>
> I ordered up a set of shoes with
> > carbon-kevlar street linings for the rear drums and we
installed
> > them. They have basically exceeded my expectations, and
they're
> > still going strong some 10K+ miles and several years later.
Back
> > to the hill test, and I was impressed! Yank, and come to a
> > sliding stop, locking up the wheels. Can be done repeatedly
and
> > rather reliably, although it's tough on rear tires :-|. So
I
> > now felt safer against a runaway on my hill. Next up, my
front
> > organics ran out, except this time my inspection method
failed
> > me, since I was only seeing the outside shoes through the
hole on
> > the disc brakes up front. My mechanic had the car up on the
> > hoist for the frequent CV boot replacement, and made a
emphatic
> > note to me that my linings (the insides) were nearly down to
the
> > rivets. Not good! So I had to punt and take him up on his
offer
> > (rather than what I was holding out for which was Porterfield
> > carbon-kevlars on the front too), since he wasn't up for
letting
> > my vehicle out of the shop. He produced a nice set of vented
and
> > grooved rotors (which was another upgrade angle I was working
on)
> > and a set of semi-metallic "rotor eater" linings. Installed,
and
> > I could feel the well-known warm-up time (which wasn't long
> > considering the descent from my apt). Those linings have
been in
> > there several years by now, and he says they're doing fine.
And
> > I also note that no sweat forms on my brow like it used to
when I
> > had a big hill descent in front of my EV. I pretty much take
it
> > like all the gas cars do. And when my car was down in the
South
> > Bay last year for an "extended period", we had the vehicle
out on
> > the freeway (Hi101) doing 70mph for some testing.
Unfortunately,
> > came up real fast on a traffic jam and all the brake lights
lit
> > up. It was work, but I got 'er hauled down with room to
spare.
> > It would help a bit if I had the vacuum assist going, but
that's
> > another story...
> >
> Wow! I'm impressed, NO vacuun assist! I ran my Rabbit
WITHOUT the
> vacuum assist, for the first year, my freight train running
experiance, Con
> Rail, came handy in planning ahead for eventual stops! But I
never had a
> panic stop thing Thank God! You are a brave guy! Ya must have
put about 1400
> lbs pedal pressure on for that one! I was afraid to let anybody
else drive
> my Rabbit, as they arent expecting million lb pedal pressure to
get any
> meaningful brakes!' Yur Electric is nice but the brakes are
Terrable! " my
> wife used to say. The vacuum thing was a wonderful improvment,
but I want
> MORE! Or less fade.
I'm not real sure that no vacuum assist really implies all that
much more brake pedal effort. It's how the pedal resistance
comes on that is different.. Yeah, I've got strong legs, and I
was just beginning to slide up the back of the seat for that
70 -> 0 stop. But what is more important than having or not
having vacuum assist, in my opinion, is having it reliably one
way or the other. Erratic vacuum assist is a bummer, and that's
why I don't have it now. But some new parts came from KTA the
other day :-), and I may soon (within a few months) be moving
back over to the other side...
The erratic bit also got me into trouble with my mechanic down at
Swiss Garage. I forgot to tell them that there were no power
brakes (this was back in 2000; it hadn't been into their shop for
a couple of months and years before that). I think in the back
of my head I thought they already knew, but mainly I forgot to
warn them. They nearly dumped it into a fence on those
quick-rolling Invictas (crowned street - turning it around). I
really heard about that. They expected power assist, but got
none, which is a no-no! So when it had to go back in the shop a
few months ago, I really made sure to warn them. They were a
much friendlier bunch this time regarding this car (they also
work on my 4Runner) and talked about the good points of the car,
instead of knocking it down at every chance.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > Something that always bugs me about this engine on-off
business,
> > and that is how do you keep the pollution controls, namely
the
> > catalytic converter, warm when the engine is not running?
>
> Quite simply, you insulate it, and provide some means to
control the
> amount of heat it gets. Like your house, car, water heater, and
anything
> else you want the temperature controlled.
So say Mr. Prius pulls off a freeway into a big gated community
with a close-in shopping center. Somehow he manages to drive his
Prius slowly and tenderly enough in this area to keep it in
electric mode for the better part of 15 to 30 minutes, or longer.
Then he has to get back out on the freeway, in which case the gas
engine kicks in. At this point, I would have to wonder whether
the intake ports behind the valves, along with the cylinder
walls, have cooled down enough to cause at least a bit of fuel
settling out, which is then not combusted properly and goes
squirting out the exhaust port. The catalytic converter has
probably also cooled down, unless it's electrically heated or as
well insulated as a dewar, and I would think it would have to
relight. I'd expect a good shot of HC out of the tailpipe.
Granted, this is probably an extreme case...
>
> > Also oil pressure could be an issue. Starting an engine is
when
> > most of the wear occurs, because you don't have an oil film
built up.
>
> Modern oils are pretty good; the oil film remains for quite a
while.
> That's why they can get away with those stunts where they drain
the oil
> from an engine and run it for hours.
One of our EAA members likes to tell me of the time several years
ago when he lost his oil at one of the tollbooths at the east end
of the Bay Bridge. This is a '68 Datsun. Apparently he drove it
over the Bridge (several miles) and exited in San Francisco and
got off the road. The engine is still running to this day,
albeit there is a crack in the block. However, I also know of a
small-block V8 that was replaced into a Corvette at a speed shop
back in the late 70s. They forgot to put the oil in, drove it
down the road a few blocks, and it totally froze up. In this
case, they probably didn't have any motor oil film, just the
assembly oil on the parts.
>
> Another key is that with hybrids like the Toyota and Honda, the
starter
> are so powerful that they can spin the engine all the way up to
idling
> rpm before giving it fuel and spark. This way the engine has
full oil
> pressure before it is started. The evidence so far suggests
that it
> works. There are examples of both hybrids with well over
100,000 miles
> on them and no engine wear-out. In fact, I notice that our
Prius engine
> oil is exceptionally clean, and Toyota only recommends a 7500
mile
> change interval.
My EV allows me to let my 4Runner sit in the storage container,
and I use the 4Runner for road trips, camping trips, towing the
EV, what have you, get the gas engine warmed up and keep it
there. None of this short trip stuff for the gas motor if I can
help it. But I will let it sit for upwards of two months between
uses, any longer and I'll go purposefully exercise it with a run
down the freeway. I've had some concern about what goes on with
engine oil film after sitting a month or two and one does a cold
start. Had thought a few years ago about getting an oil
precharge system, but I was dissuaded by engineering expertise
telling me that the oil film tends to last a long time. Also
install and use costs and hassles. So far, after several years,
I can't really detect this being a problem for the engine.
Sometimes a little valve clatter on start-up, but it usually goes
away in a few seconds.
Getting OT...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also had something funky happen, although I doubt it's EVDL's
fault. Was a prolific EVDL poster last night, posting seven
messages. I got seven email bounces from Yahoo saying could not
find the user at something like sccoast.net. My EVDL messages
did post, but it was weird that the Yahoo bounces occurred at
almost the same time. Duh??
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:05 AM
Subject: Fw: Russian cars, Sentra's an' Stuff
> Hi All;
>
> I don't know what's up here? Hafta resend postings in
"Forward" to get
> on, now as i get the "Warning Can't send " thing from Windoz
and Out look
> Distress mail thing, days later. If their are two posts of mine
the same,
> thats the Snail mail speed it's working at?!
> Bob
[snip]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, it was "electric breadbox", rather than "bread basket". I
like your idea of "Plug into the future", kinda like tapping into
the stream as it moves into the electric future...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: electric breadbasket/new catch phrase.
> This kind of rumour making and big lie make me want to use it
to the
> advantage of the EV cause. How about "Plug in to the future.
Electric cars
> are the future." or "Plug it in, Plug it in." oops that has
already been
> used. HMMMMMMM....Anybody have a bumper sticker made up?
Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:01 AM
> Subject: electric breadbasket
>
>
> > Saw today (in Tuesday's San Francisco Chronicle) a full page
ad
> > from GM, announcing that they will be using hybrid technology
in
> > several models this year. A couple of trucks, like the
Tahoe,
> > come to mind. But right at the start of the dialog, they
gotta
> > nail electrics, just like Toyota and Honda do with their
"don't
> > have to plug it in" phrase. If I recall correctly, the
starting
> > phrase was something to the effect of "Unlike electric
> > breadbaskets...". So here is a third automaker now bashing
> > electrics in their ads. Gimme a break! One of the biggest
> > reasons I want to plug it in is to get away from the infernal
> > fossil fuel infrastructure that gives them the chance to say
"and
> > a motor that never needs plugged in". I wonder how many
people
> > buy that as being an advantage.
[snip]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Furniss wrote:
> I have some 8V Trojan battery's that have a "straight solid
snap in cap" and
> there leaking acid, should I get the same kind of replacement
caps or has
> anybody found something better, I haven't checked with the
battery dealer
> yet I thought I would ask here first.
I don't know if they are the same as yours (mine twist in like
most battery caps), but the big white caps on my Trojan T125s
turned up several leakers. I was fortunate enough to save the
good caps (smaller caps with 4 fins sticking out of them) from my
old US2300s (Jim Ramos at American Battery in Hayward, CA threw
in a bag of those when I got my first pack, and I eventually
swapped them in place of those funky 3-in-1 cap assemblies), and
those do much better than the Trojan caps. There is also the
matter of gasket seal to the rim of the cell. Sunday I was
gassing the spare T125s on the deck with an equalizing charge,
and noticed some acid leaking out around some of the Trojan caps.
Thought, oops, overfilled, but no the level had only come up
maybe a quarter inch or so. Just the good fizzing overpowered
the caps.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the best laughs I had in quite awhile was when a fellow
EAA'er suggested attaching balloons to the tops of the cells.
Too much gassing, the balloon gets larger... Could rig up a
contact sensor that would trip when the balloon was stretching
out... Can you imagine a whole battery bank with balloons all
a'quivering... :->
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: George Tylinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: Charging questions
> Yes, this is the "right" way to do it. Though your algorithm
would still
> need numbers (how much gassing is enough, how much temperature
rise is
> too much, etc.). It would be great if each battery block came
with a
> standardized internal temp sensor. Easy to do, hard to
standardize.
> Without a standard, not a penny is likely to be spent adding
any kind of
> sensors.
>
> Once you get inside the battery, there may be a different way
to detect
> gassing or impending gassing, chemically? Other than lighting a
match?
> Gassing rate (net?) is different than H2 concentration.
>
> - GT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:14 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Charging questions
> >
> >
> > Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > > Charging is a black art. I don't think most people are
> > going to put up
> > > with it (what a lot of us go through trying to keep our
batteries
> > > running well), and it will require sophisticated idiotproof
battery
> > > management to make batteries work for most people.
> >
> > I wouldn't say it is a "black" art, but it is certainly as
> > much art as science.
> >
> > It seems like batteries behave almost like a living thing.
> > They respond well to good care, and badly to poor treatment.
> > Like the family pet, you can't just lock them in a cage and
> > blindly feed them identically every day. It works for a
> > while, but the animal changes over time. It needs exercise,
> > and attention, and gets sick once in a while for no apparent
> > reason. You have to keep monitoring it, and adjusting what
> > you do accordingly.
> >
> > This imposes limitations on any kind of automatic battery
> > charging system. Most of them blindly do exactly the same
> > thing on every charge cycle, no matter what. This works OK
> > when everything is fine, but it works poorly at detecting and
> > correcting problems. So, the problems go undetected, and get
> > worse until the battery dies.
> >
> > For years I've thought that we need to build a fuzzy logic
> > battery charger. No, fuzzy logic is not a joke; it is a
> > serious scientific discipline for dealing with problems where
> > you do not have sufficient data to make a perfect decision,
> > but you do have enough to make a "good" one.
> >
> > Here's an example of a fuzzy charging algorithm:
> >
> > - charge with as much current as the charger can deliver
until the
> > battery starts to gas
> > - reduce charging current to hold the gassing rate constant
> > - you're done when the battery temperature starts to rise, or
the
> > voltage stops rising
> >
> > Notice that there isn't a single number in that algorithm. It
> > doesn't know what the battery voltage is, or its amphour
> > capacity. This means it adapts automatically to the battery.
> > It still works with an old battery, or if a cell dies, or if
> > the battery is hot.
> >
> > It *does* want to know about gassing. We usually use voltage
> > as in indication of this, but that is indirect and leads to
> > so many of our complications (like a need to know battery
> > voltage, temperature compensation, etc.). Something like a
> > pressure sensor or hydrogen gas detector would provide a more
> > accurate indication.
> >
> > It also wants to know temperature. Again, we usually don't
> > measure it, though it has a significant effect on battery
chemistry.
> >
> > My guess is that algorithms like this would lead to more
> > "foolproof" chargers. But they might be more expensive,
> > because of the types of sensors used. Designers often choose
> > to do what is easy, rather than what they know would work
better.
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -
> > Leonard Cohen
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dive On! - as long as it's just a waste dumpster; but please get permission
before salvaging from a scrap metal bin or any other type of container that
has been labeled as a recycling bin, otherwise both the discarder and the
recycler are likely to come after you.
Here's what the US Supreme Court had to say in a similar case:
California v. Greenwood
No Reasonable Expectation of Privacy in Publicly Accessible Trash
The Supreme Court held that a warrantless inspection of
garbage left at the curb for collection does not constitute
a fourth amendment search that intrudes into a Reasonable
expectation of privacy. The Court determined that even
through Greenwood may have exhibited a subjective
expectation of privacy in his trash, that expectation was
not objectively reasonable and not one that society is
willing to protect.>*3
The court relied on two factors in concluding there was no
Reasonable expectation of privacy in trash left at the curb
for collection. First the Court noted that ``[I]t is common
knowledge that plastic garbage bags left on or at the side
of a public street are readily accessible to animals,
children, scavengers, snoops and other members of the
public''>*4 and that it is well established that ``[W]hat a
person knowingly exposes to the public, even in his own
home or office, is not a subject of Fourth Amendment
protection.''>*5
Happy Scavenging!
Jay Donnaway
State Recycling Coordinator
Office of Environmental Management
Georgia Department of Community Affairs
60 Executive Park South, NE
Atlanta, GA 30329-2231
404-679-3161
fax 679-0646
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Tylinski [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:58 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Dumpster diving
>
> It is illegal in some areas to remove recyclable material if the garbage
> hauler derives revenue from selling it. Scrap metal and newsprint for
> instance.
>
> - GT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jon "Sheer" Pullen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:18 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: OT: Dumpster diving
> >
> >
> >
> > > I am not recommending it, nor even admitting that I may
> > have done it.
> >
> > Reccommend all you want! Dumpster diving is NOT illegal, and
> > in fact is often used by law enforcement types when trying to
> > find out what a criminal is up to without getting a warrent.
> >
> > At least as recently as 2001, according to The Art Of
> > Deception, dumpster diving was legal in all 50 states.
> >
> > As long as you don't have to trespass on locked private
> > property, dumpster diving is 100% legal. Many times, if
> > you're dumpster diving for devices rather than corperate
> > secrets, employees will be happy to help you dive by leaving
> > what you want in a neat little pile next to the dumpster - no
> > one likes to see equipment that someone thinks is usefull to
> > them go to waste.
> >
> > Back in my Epoch days, I used to dumpster-dive entire
> > computer systems.. they'd throw out perfectly working
> > pentiums and monitors, just because the cases were cracked or
> > the hard drives weren't big enough or the computers were obsolete!
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had to change to the standard twist off caps. Mitch Oates just did too.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Trojan battery caps
> Richard wrote:
> >I have some 8V Trojan battery's that have a "straight solid snap in cap"
and
> >there leaking acid, should I get the same kind of replacement caps or has
> >anybody found something better, I haven't checked with the battery dealer
> >yet I thought I would ask here first.
>
> Personally, I would recommend Optimas ;-) I've never seen any leakage
> with mine, and they are 4 years old.
>
> Neon
>
> P.S. - perhaps that wasn't the answer you where looking for <G>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan Batie wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:23:20PM -0800, Jon Sheer Pullen wrote:
> > The amusing thing is that these days, we have good enough computers
> > that drivers-ed could cover every conceivable situation in
> a simulator
>
> I think it would make a great educational "game" also, though
> a larger setup could be more realistic even...
>
> > drivers-ed classrooms had 30 pcs with force feedback wheels
> and pedals
> > ($1200 each of off-the-shelf stuff) and some software that
> accurately
> > simulated the car physics (like viper racing) and the complexity of
> > modern traffic - maybe three-displays to cover side and front views
> > (multihead - add $500 or so to the cost of the system)
>
> At last summer's Street Of Dreams here in Portland, one of
> the homes had a home theater equipped with chairs that moved
> ala motion simulator rides. They have a variety of enhanced
> DVDs encoded to move the chairs according to the scenes in
> the movies. Hook them up to a driving simulator and you
> could feel the road too...
Hi Alan,
A simulator is a good thing, but only to a point. Responding to
situations that arise while you are in motion is not as cerebral an
activity as many would think. You need the real McCoy, all the slips
and judders, the *feel* of the inertia of the vehicle, and all the
visual cues in real 3D space that allow you to make time-speed-distance
decisions. This is so much more than hand-eye coordination and
conditioned responses. It's more about reading a situation in real
time, using *all* your sensory inputs. Especially those internal
accelerometers that are so under-used by most people.
As for adding motion to a simulator, even those rides that rise up and
jump around on hydraulic rams can't duplicate the driving experience.
Most important, my limited exposure to video games (my son's Game Cube
is the most recent) suggests the response time through a simulator can
be way off. None that I've experienced respond to input like a real
vehicle. That alone might do more harm than good.
There ain't nothin' like the real thing.
Search on "performance driving school". You'll find lots of places
where you can get real experience at the limits, and do it safely. Take
a course. Don't put it off. I guarantee it will be one of the most
eye-opening experiences of your life. You will achieve an altered state
of awareness. You'll wonder how you ever survived until now. The
average driver has *no idea* how much control over their destiny they
can have in an emergency.
Courses like this aren't cheap, but I feel they are one of the best
deals in life preservation money can buy. My son will take one before
he gets his license. As I get older, I will use them as a refresher.
Also to assess my ability so I'll know when it's time to hang up the
keys.
You don't know it unless you really experience it.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the smartest things I ever did was take the Motorcycle Safety
Foundation's Basic Rider course. You come away from it very aware of your
surroundings and hyper-concious of safety on the road. Even if you don't
know how to ride a motorcycle (they teach you and provide the gear) and
never plan to buy one, take it for the knowledge you will gain.
John Shelton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1sclunn wrote:
> I leave [the 70w solar panel] on the 12v system battery most of
> the time so as not to throw out of balance the pack. I would think
> that your automatic sys would bounce around quite a bit?
Since it switches with relays, I kept the switching speed very low. It
takes from 5 minutes to an hour to scan all batteries (unless the user
is prompting it to go faster). Balancing is a slow process anyway. You
read all the voltages, that tells you which one is low, and you charge
it for a number of minutes proportional to how low it is. Then repeat.
> Do you have a way of telling what bat the BMS is charging?
Yes, there is an LED for each relay. The simplest user interface is just
the digital multimeter which shows the battery voltage, and the LEDs to
tell which battery it is showing.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
