EV Digest 2528
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: New EV Project
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Evercel MB80's won't fit!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New EV Project
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: (OT) EV-1, Steve Tanner@ vbiz Iink
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus (long and technical reply)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus (long and technical reply) CORRECTION
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Ford's USPS EV program is dead
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) OT Anti SUV ADs
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Evercel MB80's won't fit!
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Rabbit based EV brakes WAS-Re: gimme a brake ...
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I don't totally agree with Tom. He is right if you leave it as is. But if
you use a full faring and I mean a full fairing covering the whole bike it
shouldn't be hard to do it at 48v as long as the hills aren't too bad and
you only want to go about 60mph. I have a fairing that will work and only
needs 3hp to push it 60 mph. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: New EV Project
> It sounds like you've got the makings for an interesting project. I think
> the ADC motor can drive your small motorcycle. But it will need much
> more than 48 volts to develop the speed and power needed for spirited
> running. 144 volts should be enough.
> I'm skeptical about making a good freeway commuter. I haven't seen or
read
> about a good example. The necessary batteries get too heavy and bulky if
> you strive for freeway speed and good range. I can see a motorcycle with
a
> small battery pack that outaccelerates most other vehicles, does an
> occasional wheelie or burnout or 80 mph short sprint and goes maybe 8
miles
> on a charge.
> Talk to John Wayland about making your little motorcycle fly. He will
know
> what needs to be done.
>
> Tom Shay
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 7:13 PM
> Subject: New EV Project
>
>
> > Well my first official EV project is underway. I did electrify one of
the
> > kids scooters a few months ago, but that doesn't count.
> >
> > I just brought home the donor vehicle today. It is a 1974 Suzuki GT250.
> It
> > has less then 5000 miles on it, and is in decent shape. There is some
> rust
> > on some of the chrome, some scratches on some of the paint, the lights
> don't
> > seem to work, and the front brake sticks. It seems to have a nice
strong
> > frame and be in sound shape other then that. It even has the original
> > tires. I gave the kids some rides up and down the street, but the
> > carberauter seems to need adjusting, and it is noisy, and stinky, so
> rather
> > then run the gas all the way out like I was planning, I think I will
just
> > drain the tank and tear into it.
> >
> > The basic plan is this. ADC 6.7 inch motor. The main reason I chose
> this,
> > is because I was able to get it for $125. John Wayland has a bunch he
is
> > selling at that price. The controller is a Curtis 1204 36-48V 275A.
> > Batteries are still undetermined, but I have 6 Hawker GP13s that I am
> going
> > to use to test with after I get it assembled before I make my final
> > batteries decision. I want to build this to do a fairly long commute,
25
> > miles one way, mostly freeway, and I want to see what kind of WH/Mile I
> end
> > up with before commiting to batteris. Right now I am thinking that 4
> Group
> > 31 Optimas are the most likely choice. I would love to do Evercells,
but
> > we'll see when anyone can actually get their hands on some. I am also
> still
> > considering NiCads. If I go with AGM's I will probably use a modular
> > charger made up of 4 of the Toshiba Laptop chargers. After the thread
> > started about these being great for charging AGM's I realized I had a
> couple
> > laying around. I have been playing with them on my Hawkers and they
> really
> > do well. I actually have two different versions, one rated at 2 amps
and
> > one rated at 2.7 amps. John and I hooked one up to one of my Hawkers
and
> > measured it pumping in over 4 amps and it didn't seem to be breaking
much
> of
> > a sweat, it did taper down after that.
> >
> > I would rather be doing a car then a motorcycle, but everything about
> doing
> > a motorcycle costs less, and around here motorcycles get HOV access but
> > electric cars don't. Also with the low budget I can buid a motorcycle,
> and
> > won't have to get rid of my Honda Insight, so I can have both an EV and
> > Hybrid. If I were doing a car, I would have to sell the Insight.
> >
> > I would have loved doing a small truck. The problem is I was seriously
> > considering buying Paul G (Neon)s VW truck. He only wants $7000 for it.
> My
> > wife was going to let me do it, until she caught me looking at pictures
of
> > it. After making several disguested noises, she informed me that she
> hates
> > Rabbits and VW trucks. We are working on 14 years of marriage, and I
had
> no
> > idea... Go figure. Anyway, knowing that I would probably have to spend
> 10K
> > - 12K and many hours to DIY a truck when I could have bought one as nice
> as
> > Pauls for 7k spoiled those plans, so it is off to the motorcycle races
for
> > me.
> >
> > damon
> >
> > I put a picture of my donor here
> > http://home.attbi.com/~damonhenry/suzukileft.jpg
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it possible to modify the battery box and exterior of the Sparrow to
accomodate the batteries. I've seen quite a few muscle cars with a buldge
in the hood. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Evercel MB80's won't fit!
> At 01:14 PM 1/11/2003 -0500, Jim Coate wrote:
> >I know the idea of squeezing in "just one more YT" went around a bit on
> >the list a while back and the bottom line was there just wasn't any
> >room. Did you look at using 2 of the 6-volt versions as could squeeze
> >into smaller spaces? I know they tend to cost almost as much as the
> >12-volt version but a few are still around. Ignore me if this was already
> >discussed and eliminated.
>
> Not a chance. I did verify experimentally today that MB-80's just Will
Not
> Fit in a Sparrow. The front battery compartment comes out to about 1/2"
> (maybe a bit more) too short.
> (I cut some boards to be MB80 size, and tried to fit them in. Not a
chance.)
>
> >Or if all else fails, just turn your heaters way up, run the batteries at
> >120 degrees and plan to replace them every 6 months...
>
> I'm seriously considering that.
> Think it'll give me an extra 10% capacity?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't totally agree with Tom. He is right if you leave it as is. But if
you use a full faring and I mean a full fairing covering the whole bike it
shouldn't be hard to do it at 48v as long as the hills aren't too bad and
you only want to go about 60mph. I have a fairing that will work and only
needs 3hp to push it 60 mph. Lawrence Rhodes....
Check out the pages on Cedric Lynch's electric streamliner. They are
on Paul Compton's website ( http://www.sciroccoev.co.uk ). Cedric's
is 48V using YTs and gets about 80 miles per charge at 40 MPH. It's
super light and fully faired.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, Jan 11, 2003 at 01:40:32PM -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> The parking lot where I work probably has fewer SUVs than most (owing to
> both the prevailing culture and the salaries), but of the 5 who do have
> them, only one ever carries anything large in it.
I never (or rarely) carried anything to work in mine either, but that doesn't
mean I don't have need of the carrying capacity.
> A person who bought an SUV to p**s someone off is a hazard.
A person who bought an SUV solely to annoy someone is a hazard to their
own checkbook and an idiot. More than likely they bought it for a reason
and said what they said to p**s someone off.
> For those of us who drive small cars, including light EVs, large vehicles
> that don't absorb their share of collision energy are a hazard.
The fact that there are a range of sizes of vehicles on the road is no
reason to demonize them; semi's are far more dangerous than anything else
in terms of size disparity issues, but it would be ludicrous to try to get
them banned. Accidents are bad regardless of the size of the vehicle and
a good driver keeps an eye out to avoid them even when someone else tries
to create one. Small cars have the advantage of being more maneuverable
too.
> But when a person chooses an oversized vehicle as a daily commuter, and
> doesn't really need all that extra space, that person increases the danger
> to us with no real practical benefit for society. Quite the opposite.
For most people having multiple cars so they can drive the best fitted for
the purpose is impractical. Much as I would like an EV to run around town
in, it's not in the cards soon. Any SUV basher is more than welcome to buy
me an EV.
> Second, in a collision this vehicle will do more damage and cost society in
> property damage, lives, and dollars.
This a strawman. I've never been in a collision. If someone else causes
it, frankly, I don't much care how much it costs them. If the SUV driver
causes, they and their insurance company are responsible for it, not "society".
> Excessive vehicle's size is a burden on society.
There are far worse burdens that we accept in a free society. Freedom only
means anything when applied to something you don't like.
> 1. A purchase tax based on the cost to society of its manufacture. This
> would include environmental damage in the assembly and disposal of the
> vehicle, and the use of raw materials. (To be fair, we should also make the
> nearly forgotten gas-guzzler tax apply to trucks.)
Something like this should be done for all products, not just vehicles, but
determing the true cost would be such a political process, it could never be
done fairly. As a first approximation, I think manufacturers should have to
take back all products they've made for disposal and/or recycling, sorta like
pop bottles. They'll quickly make them much more reuseable and recyclable.
> 2. A carbon tax based on fuel usage as determined by EPA rating. This will
> obviously be low for EVs.
That would not be unreasonable.
> 3. A road and injury tax based on weight. This could be a problem for EVs,
> but perhaps an EV credit could be provided.
This I disagree with, as it makes good drivers pay for the mistakes of bad
drivers. We have a system in place already to handle this issue: it's called
insurance. A bad driver in a small car is much more of a hazard than a good
driver in a big car.
> These taxes would be
> adjusted according to the benefit society derives from each vehicle.
Do you *really* want to try to create a process to define "benefit to
society"? I don't think you could get two people to agree, much less a
committee or the whole of society. And in fact, I think the task is
inherently impossible because there will always be cases of winners vs
losers, some people valuing this, others that. I would not want to be
anywhere near a society that tried to do something like that.
What is reasonable to do is determine where the real costs are (namely fuel
and pollution), and make sure those costs are accurately reflected in the
operational cost. Fuel will take care of itself in the market, and an
emissions tax would take care of the other. I'd dearly love for all the
badly tuned diesels to get taxed according to the stench they put out. And
I'll bet all the SUV bashers out there wouldn't say a word one if I was still
driving the 64 chevy pickup I used to have, despite getting 2/3rds the gas
mileage, no catylytic converter, far worse brakes, no seatbelts and a metal
dash with a ridge that couldn't be better designed to crack a skull in a
collision. Oh, and very rigid, sturdy, non-shock-absorbing steel bumpers.
Despite all that going against it, no one was ever injured in or by it in
the 250,000 miles and over 20 years my parents and I owned it.
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The batricidal maniac finally hooked up the regs. I drove around
enough to drain the batteries (they actually dipped below 10.7
per 12 volt battery momentarily under load), made sure that the
switches on the PFC-50 were set according to Rich's instructions
(1,3, and 4 on, the rest off) and fired her up. Now 5 of the
regs were showing undervoltage when I started up the PFC. I'm
presuming that the charger throttled itself back here; for some
reason yet to be discerned, the e-meter does not show any
positive amps, though it shows negative amps well enough when I
was driving. Voltage rose quickly from 98 to 103 (96 volt
pack)and slowly after that. A couple of hours later, the blue
light was on steady, meaning that the timer had done its time,
but the 5 regs still had their red undervoltage leds on.
Individual voltages on those batteries were
13.26-13.29. No regs were green nor had I seen any flash. The
temperature in the battery box was only 12C - it looks like we'll
need a few more feet of heat tape to fight the prairie chill.
I reset the undervoltage regs by disconnecting each for a moment
(with the charger off) then when they were all reconnected I
fired up the charger again. Within seconds, the voltage limit
led came on and two of the regs started flashing green slowly.
How do I get this charger / reg combination to equalize the
batteries? If I understand correctly, the ideal circumstance
would be that the charger backs off when the first reg starts
bypassing, and keeps going till the last one reaches its voltage
limit and starts flashing green.
The batteries are old tired Hawker 26Ah Genesis in buddy pairs.
I'm thinking of breaking up the pack and just running with the
best 8 of them; I don't seem to get more range with the 16 of
them than I did a few test runs ago with just 8, but on the other
hand I probably have not charged them properly yet.
Bit of a learning curve here. I can see how us neophytes kill
batteries through ignorance. I'm constantly feeling like I'm in
over my head. At least I'm learning on a pack I got for free.
Still, it's a heap of fun driving around in my unlicensed open
car (after the second run I put the windshield on), even at -18C
with a 15 km/hr headwind. The ev grin is literally frozen on my
face.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
Who needs cooling fans, anyway?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why was this a reply?
I never saw the original and I did not see anything quoted in the message.
Comments inserted...
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus
> The batricidal maniac finally hooked up the regs. I drove around
> enough to drain the batteries (they actually dipped below 10.7
> per 12 volt battery momentarily under load), made sure that the
> switches on the PFC-50 were set according to Rich's instructions
> (1,3, and 4 on, the rest off) and fired her up.
1 sets the charger to cut back at the acceptance voltage set by the front
panel trim pot. More about this later in the message.
> Now 5 of the
> regs were showing undervoltage when I started up the PFC. I'm
> presuming that the charger throttled itself back here; for some
> reason yet to be discerned, the e-meter does not show any
> positive amps, though it shows negative amps well enough when I
> was driving. Voltage rose quickly from 98 to 103 (96 volt
> pack)and slowly after that.
The trim pot is apparently set for 103 volts. If the Yellow LED on the front
of the charger came on, it confirms it.
> A couple of hours later, the blue
> light was on steady, meaning that the timer had done its time,
> but the 5 regs still had their red undervoltage leds on.
> Individual voltages on those batteries were
> 13.26-13.29. No regs were green nor had I seen any flash.
Apparently the acceptance voltage set with the trim pot on the front of the
charger stopped the voltage rise before any regulators came up to voltage.
If you divide 103 by 8 batteries, the average battery voltage is only 12.8
volts. This is not nearly enough voltage to top them off and get the green
LEDs blinking.
> The
> temperature in the battery box was only 12C - it looks like we'll
> need a few more feet of heat tape to fight the prairie chill.
Yes.
> I reset the undervoltage regs by disconnecting each for a moment
> (with the charger off) then when they were all reconnected I
> fired up the charger again. Within seconds, the voltage limit
> led came on and two of the regs started flashing green slowly.
>
> How do I get this charger / reg combination to equalize the
> batteries?
Equalization and topping them off are two different things.
What you want to do at this point in the life of your system is get the
batteries fully charged. You have several options to do this. The one I like
is to
1. Turn the current control to zero (full counter clockwise)
2. Turn the trim pot up about 1 full turn (clockwise) (approximate setting
is 123 volts)
3. Turn the current control clockwise until the first reg blinks green.
4. When any reg goes solid green, pin 2 on the regbus (relative to pin 4 of
the regbus) should increase linearly with temperature. If a reg goes into
thermal shutdown, this pin will go up to 5 volts instantly. You can measure
this voltage at any reg on the regbus. You must have VR1 on the charge
controller board set low enough that the charger cuts back before any reg
goes into themal shutdown.
5. Verify the charger cuts back (not shuts down) when that reg gets hot. If
it cuts back to zero over a fraction of a minute, the regs need more
airflow.
6. If the charger does not cut back without hitting zero, you can work
around this on the first few cycles by manually turning the charger down as
each reg GOES ON SOLID. >>DO NOT reduce the current if they are BLINKING.
BLINKING IS REQUIRED FOR REGULATION.<< If you lose control of the current
and the Yellow LED on the front panel of the charger comes on, turn the
voltage control trim pot up another half turn.
7.When ALL the regs are BLINKING, read the voltage on all the regulators and
verify the voltage meets the manufacturer's cycling finish voltage
requirement (not the float voltage, it is too low.) Adjust VR1 on the
regulator if necessary.
8. Note the voltage reading on the emeter. This is the acceptance voltage
for your pack AT THIS TEMPERATURE. When the temperature changes, this number
changes since the regulators are temperature compensated.
9. Turn the voltage trim pot down until the Yellow LED in the front panel of
the charger comes on. This sets the acceptance voltage of the charger.
10. Turn the current control to zero (full counter clockwise)
To equalize the pack requires some additional steps:
1. Turn the current control to zero (full counter clockwise)
2. Turn on switch 6 on the charger. This puts the regs into equalize mode.
Verify that the Yellow LED on the regbus board illuminates on all the regbus
board to confirm that they all receive the signal. When this LED is on, the
regulator voltage is increased by 10% to allow the battery voltage to rise
over the original reg set point without causing them to regulate.
3. Turn the voltage trim pot up a full turn clockwise.
4. Turn the current control knob up until the emeter reads the desired
equalize current.
5. Wait the prescribed amount of time for timed equalization or monitor the
pack voltage until it stops rising for the delta V equalization.
6. Turn the current control to zero (full counter clockwise)
7. Turn the voltage trim pot down a full turn counterclockwise )to restore
it to its original position.)
> If I understand correctly, the ideal circumstance
> would be that the charger backs off when the first reg starts
> bypassing, and keeps going till the last one reaches its voltage
> limit and starts flashing green.
No. The charger backs off when any reg goes on solid.
No. The charge has no idea when the last one comes up. The operator needs to
turn off the charger. Leaving the charger on with the regs blinking for
several hours does very little damage to the batteries. Leaving it on for
days, weeks or months will damage them. If the timer is enabled to start
when the first regulator hits, it will time out after the set period of
time. The first several cycles after regs are installed run longer than the
timer is capable of running and must be monitored manually. After a half
dozen cycles, the time becomes repeatable and the user can set the timer for
enough time for the last battery to come up.
> The batteries are old tired Hawker 26Ah Genesis in buddy pairs.
> I'm thinking of breaking up the pack and just running with the
> best 8 of them; I don't seem to get more range with the 16 of
> them than I did a few test runs ago with just 8, but on the other
> hand I probably have not charged them properly yet.
You are severely undercharging them with the present charger setting. If you
change your habits soon, the batteries will forgive and forget.
Did you test the batteries individually before installing them in the car so
the best battery is paired with the worst battery therefore the sum of the
pairs is as consistent as possible throughout the pack?
> Bit of a learning curve here. I can see how us neophytes kill
> batteries through ignorance. I'm constantly feeling like I'm in
> over my head. At least I'm learning on a pack I got for free.
You haven't damaged them with the charger yet. If you don't get too
aggressive, it won't happen.
Do you have the undervoltage remote optocoupler hooked up to a "lift" light
to know when the undervolt threshold is tripped on any battery?
> Still, it's a heap of fun driving around in my unlicensed open
> car (after the second run I put the windshield on), even at -18C
> with a 15 km/hr headwind. The ev grin is literally frozen on my
> face.
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> Edmonton
>
> Who needs cooling fans, anyway?
People with a lot of heat in their cars when the park them in the sun.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whoops. I forgot a line...
Step 8 in the equalization process is to put switch 6 back to its normal
position (open). It is a common mistake and you MUST put it back to get the
regs to work normally again.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus (long and technical reply)
> Why was this a reply?
>
> I never saw the original and I did not see anything quoted in the message.
>
> Comments inserted...
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 8:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus
>
>
> > The batricidal maniac finally hooked up the regs. I drove around
> > enough to drain the batteries (they actually dipped below 10.7
> > per 12 volt battery momentarily under load), made sure that the
> > switches on the PFC-50 were set according to Rich's instructions
> > (1,3, and 4 on, the rest off) and fired her up.
>
> 1 sets the charger to cut back at the acceptance voltage set by the front
> panel trim pot. More about this later in the message.
>
> > Now 5 of the
> > regs were showing undervoltage when I started up the PFC. I'm
> > presuming that the charger throttled itself back here; for some
> > reason yet to be discerned, the e-meter does not show any
> > positive amps, though it shows negative amps well enough when I
> > was driving. Voltage rose quickly from 98 to 103 (96 volt
> > pack)and slowly after that.
>
> The trim pot is apparently set for 103 volts. If the Yellow LED on the
front
> of the charger came on, it confirms it.
>
> > A couple of hours later, the blue
> > light was on steady, meaning that the timer had done its time,
> > but the 5 regs still had their red undervoltage leds on.
> > Individual voltages on those batteries were
> > 13.26-13.29. No regs were green nor had I seen any flash.
>
> Apparently the acceptance voltage set with the trim pot on the front of
the
> charger stopped the voltage rise before any regulators came up to voltage.
> If you divide 103 by 8 batteries, the average battery voltage is only 12.8
> volts. This is not nearly enough voltage to top them off and get the green
> LEDs blinking.
>
> > The
> > temperature in the battery box was only 12C - it looks like we'll
> > need a few more feet of heat tape to fight the prairie chill.
>
> Yes.
>
> > I reset the undervoltage regs by disconnecting each for a moment
> > (with the charger off) then when they were all reconnected I
> > fired up the charger again. Within seconds, the voltage limit
> > led came on and two of the regs started flashing green slowly.
> >
> > How do I get this charger / reg combination to equalize the
> > batteries?
>
> Equalization and topping them off are two different things.
>
> What you want to do at this point in the life of your system is get the
> batteries fully charged. You have several options to do this. The one I
like
> is to
> 1. Turn the current control to zero (full counter clockwise)
> 2. Turn the trim pot up about 1 full turn (clockwise) (approximate setting
> is 123 volts)
> 3. Turn the current control clockwise until the first reg blinks green.
> 4. When any reg goes solid green, pin 2 on the regbus (relative to pin 4
of
> the regbus) should increase linearly with temperature. If a reg goes into
> thermal shutdown, this pin will go up to 5 volts instantly. You can
measure
> this voltage at any reg on the regbus. You must have VR1 on the charge
> controller board set low enough that the charger cuts back before any reg
> goes into themal shutdown.
> 5. Verify the charger cuts back (not shuts down) when that reg gets hot.
If
> it cuts back to zero over a fraction of a minute, the regs need more
> airflow.
> 6. If the charger does not cut back without hitting zero, you can work
> around this on the first few cycles by manually turning the charger down
as
> each reg GOES ON SOLID. >>DO NOT reduce the current if they are BLINKING.
> BLINKING IS REQUIRED FOR REGULATION.<< If you lose control of the current
> and the Yellow LED on the front panel of the charger comes on, turn the
> voltage control trim pot up another half turn.
> 7.When ALL the regs are BLINKING, read the voltage on all the regulators
and
> verify the voltage meets the manufacturer's cycling finish voltage
> requirement (not the float voltage, it is too low.) Adjust VR1 on the
> regulator if necessary.
> 8. Note the voltage reading on the emeter. This is the acceptance voltage
> for your pack AT THIS TEMPERATURE. When the temperature changes, this
number
> changes since the regulators are temperature compensated.
> 9. Turn the voltage trim pot down until the Yellow LED in the front panel
of
> the charger comes on. This sets the acceptance voltage of the charger.
> 10. Turn the current control to zero (full counter clockwise)
>
> To equalize the pack requires some additional steps:
> 1. Turn the current control to zero (full counter clockwise)
> 2. Turn on switch 6 on the charger. This puts the regs into equalize mode.
> Verify that the Yellow LED on the regbus board illuminates on all the
regbus
> board to confirm that they all receive the signal. When this LED is on,
the
> regulator voltage is increased by 10% to allow the battery voltage to rise
> over the original reg set point without causing them to regulate.
> 3. Turn the voltage trim pot up a full turn clockwise.
> 4. Turn the current control knob up until the emeter reads the desired
> equalize current.
> 5. Wait the prescribed amount of time for timed equalization or monitor
the
> pack voltage until it stops rising for the delta V equalization.
> 6. Turn the current control to zero (full counter clockwise)
> 7. Turn the voltage trim pot down a full turn counterclockwise )to restore
> it to its original position.)
>
> > If I understand correctly, the ideal circumstance
> > would be that the charger backs off when the first reg starts
> > bypassing, and keeps going till the last one reaches its voltage
> > limit and starts flashing green.
>
> No. The charger backs off when any reg goes on solid.
> No. The charge has no idea when the last one comes up. The operator needs
to
> turn off the charger. Leaving the charger on with the regs blinking for
> several hours does very little damage to the batteries. Leaving it on for
> days, weeks or months will damage them. If the timer is enabled to start
> when the first regulator hits, it will time out after the set period of
> time. The first several cycles after regs are installed run longer than
the
> timer is capable of running and must be monitored manually. After a half
> dozen cycles, the time becomes repeatable and the user can set the timer
for
> enough time for the last battery to come up.
>
> > The batteries are old tired Hawker 26Ah Genesis in buddy pairs.
> > I'm thinking of breaking up the pack and just running with the
> > best 8 of them; I don't seem to get more range with the 16 of
> > them than I did a few test runs ago with just 8, but on the other
> > hand I probably have not charged them properly yet.
>
> You are severely undercharging them with the present charger setting. If
you
> change your habits soon, the batteries will forgive and forget.
>
> Did you test the batteries individually before installing them in the car
so
> the best battery is paired with the worst battery therefore the sum of the
> pairs is as consistent as possible throughout the pack?
>
> > Bit of a learning curve here. I can see how us neophytes kill
> > batteries through ignorance. I'm constantly feeling like I'm in
> > over my head. At least I'm learning on a pack I got for free.
>
> You haven't damaged them with the charger yet. If you don't get too
> aggressive, it won't happen.
>
> Do you have the undervoltage remote optocoupler hooked up to a "lift"
light
> to know when the undervolt threshold is tripped on any battery?
>
> > Still, it's a heap of fun driving around in my unlicensed open
> > car (after the second run I put the windshield on), even at -18C
> > with a 15 km/hr headwind. The ev grin is literally frozen on my
> > face.
> >
> > Mike Hoskinson
> > Edmonton
> >
> > Who needs cooling fans, anyway?
>
> People with a lot of heat in their cars when the park them in the sun.
>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ranger-ev/message/64
...
I will assume that with Ford's attitude toward EVs, that
Ford will not make any effort to get another battery
supplier for the existing Ford Ranger EVs that are being
refurbished and released. If true, as the Ranger EV packs
die, I assume, those Ranger EVs will be retired, and the
leasee will be allowed to opt out of the lease or offered
an ICE.
Folks, the automaker's public commitment to the California
Zero Emissions Vehicle program has been a 'bait-n-switch'
tactic.
First they get the positive PR, make a token non-committal
effort while saying they are really committed, then oppose
then sue CARB to not have to follow the ZEV program,
politically buy off Gov. Peter Wilson, have automaker
friendly CARB borad members appointed, dilute the EPA,
have the current Fed gov. join to let the automakers get
their way, and now a quiet about-face, stopping all effort
without having to pay the negative PR price like Honda did
when they announced they were stopping their EV efforts.
If you have $ = you have political pull and get your way.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan Batie wrote:
> With all of the nose-in-the-air SUV bashing going on these days, I can
> sympathize with him...
Well said. Some people do have a good use for their SUVs, mainly
towing their EVs to shows.
"David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"I think we need to be a little careful of demonizing these vehicles. The US
has quite enough polarizing issues already. It seems as if more and more we
are drawing lines in the sand."
'demonizing' is irritating and pretty unfair as to the motives of the
victims. I get a kick out of this turn though, because I've always
liked small cars (a Sprite at 1500 lb. was my first and favorite car).
The prejudice towards large cars in the '60s biased the safety rules
in favor of larger cars. All the nice small cars available to Asian &
European customers can't be bought here. The fact that small cars are
more expensive to make per lb. also makes the manufacturer want to
push trucks.
"Those who drive SUVs need to gain an understanding of their responsibility.
A person who bought an SUV to p**s someone off is a hazard. He's apt to
drive aggressively, and his heavy vehicle becomes a weapon. IMO, that man
should lose his driver's license, though I'll be darned if I can think of a
way to make it happen."
There are four defining characteristics of SUVs that fit the existing
regulatory environment and could be used to moderate the fashion. The
instability, weight per passenger, driver capability testing and
aggressiveness (impact height and mass).
Driver qualification for 'truck' is tighter than for cars. Both are
low standards in N. America. That a 7000 lb. SUV driver training,
testing & licensing is the same as a Geo Metro driver isn't logical.
Licensing of a commercial vehicle is another area where modest changes
could bring the road damage cost, road space rental, excess consumption
character and safety envelope into balance with costs.
"Second, in a collision this vehicle will do more damage and cost society in
property damage, lives, and dollars. This includes dollars to provide care
for those injured. This may come out of taxes for a few, but in other cases
it comes out of our insurance payment. Again, in most cases the driver
doesn't bear a proprotionate share of the cost."
Liability and personal (first person) insurance considerations should
both be considerations in costs applied. The bumper requirement of any
vehicle on the road should meet the car standard for height and absorb
net impact forces in proportion to mass. Instability of a passenger
vehicle should not be allowed to be worse than a level that the driver
is trained for.
"If we're talking about a tradesman's van or an 18-wheeler loaded for
delivery, that's one thing; these vehicles can't readily fulfill their
mission unless they're big and heavy..."
And, vans are lighter and more car like.....somewhat.
"Yet the only place he pays more for this is in the minimal taxes on
gasoline."
I would accept the idea of increased non commercial fuel tax if the
revenue was targeted at related benefits rather than any old thing the
legislator thinks up.
"So, I believe that the answer to this controversy is not to ban SUVs, which
is probably impossible anyway. Nor should we demonize them. Instead, let's
ask those who choose them pay their fair share of the quantifiable costs to
society. I propose the following taxes to be paid on every vehicle (not
just SUVs):
"1. A purchase tax based on the cost to society of its manufacture. This
would include environmental damage in the assembly and disposal of the
vehicle, and the use of raw materials. (To be fair, we should also make the
nearly forgotten gas-guzzler tax apply to trucks.)
Trucks are engineered to tight efficiency standards. 400 hp engines
to haul many tons over mountain passes shouldn't suffer the penalties
appropriate to 400 hp 4 seaters. We city types don't often get to see
the extreme road distances across the continent. The small trucker who
can't afford the latest truck technology is out there competing with
big companies and keeping costs down.
Further, an added disposal expense to get a work vehicle in terms of a
cost not incurred until 5-8 years later is certainly a disincentive to
using new equipment. A car isn't a Pepsi can.
"...but perhaps an EV credit could be provided."
Special benefits given to certain small social groups at the expense
of others is as bad as special taxes on legal things that low income
people buy for their recreation.
"I know there are lots of flaws in this scheme, not the least of which is the
huge cost for implementation and the difficulty of determining how people
really use their vehicles. But it's a beginning, and I hope others can help
flesh it out."
That sounds like a make work program that would be the envy of Quebec.
'Cost of implementation' should give pause as would the big brother
aspects of the personal monitoring. There was a time when these ideas
weren't scary, but today, the monitoring of people, stopping without
cause, 'safety inspections' are all adding up; read 'road rage' and
'postal'. Is this o.t. or what ?
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My experience has been that batteries at 100F will do at least 10% more
energy than at 60F. Maybe use a step up transformer to get to 170VAC, or
just twice as many heaters?
Seth
"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
>
> At 12:59 PM 1/11/2003 -0800, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >At 01:14 PM 1/11/2003 -0500, Jim Coate wrote:
> >>Or if all else fails, just turn your heaters way up, run the batteries at
> >>120 degrees and plan to replace them every 6 months...
> >
> >I'm seriously considering that.
> >Think it'll give me an extra 10% capacity?
>
> Well, I've been doing some experimenting. I made some battery heater pads
> using that self-regulating heat tape. These will keep the batteries around
> 60deg F. Since I really want warmer than that, I tried running the heat
> tape on 170VDC instead of 120VAC. I think it was running a bit over 100
> deg F. Of course I'm using it way out of spec....
>
> Now, is there a chance that keeping the batteries that hot will bring
> their capacity back up near full? I probably need about 10% more than they
> can deliver when at 60 deg F.
>
> I'm still not sure if I will bother though. Running the warmers off the
> pack makes charging more awkward. And may not buy me enough time to be
> worth the effort.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has been a few years since I owned a (rusty) Rabbit here in the
NorthEast, but here is what I have so far. It looks like the break was
made 11/77 in manufacture, so maybe it is only some 1978 models and earlier.
171-407-365 F is the part # for the later, (some say a "G" suffix too)
171-407-365 C is the part # for the earlier.
I might be wrong about the size, but they did revise the part. And you
are probably overdue. Along with the wheel bearings and hubs.
The Golf II could get 17 or 19mm ball joints, and maybe I am confusing
this in my head with the rev C versus rev F Rabbit balljoint. I will
ask around to see if they are interchangeable.
A Scirocco 16V (1987-1988) front suspension should bolt up, which
enables 10.1" diameter vented front brakes (and disc rear if you really
want it), which should help stop. You might want to play with master
cylinder diamter if you do this, though.
The thump in the back might be a blown shock, is there more than just a
bit of dampness from oil around the shock shaft seal?
I think there is an answer for upper front strut bearings. One that
doesn't involve camber plates, welding and heim joints.
Seth
Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> Actually, large-diameter rotors might not be such a bad idea.
> Everytime I look at the rotors on Preston McCoy's Porsche 912 EV
> (www.geocities.com/nbeaa), I kinda go "Wow!". He says he can
> haul his car down in a hurry...
>
> So what you're saying, Seth, is that I likely have the wimpy 15mm
> ball joints, and that maybe, someday, those should be upgraded.
> I do not recall replacing the ball joints when we did the
> conversion back in '94, although I remember looking at them out
> there in free space, as everything else around them was rather
> extensively disassembled. My main suspension problems have been
> pounding out the struts in the front (the bearings in the top
> blew out), and also the steering rack got loose (that latter may
> have just been its time rather than from weight and high-pressure
> times), so new steering rack, but they didn't adjust it
> correctly, so now thunka, thunka down the road with many bumps.
> So now have a set of nitrogen-filled struts and bigger, cushier
> tires to soak up the spikes on the struts a bit.
>
> I am a little worried/annoyed with a sound I've been getting from
> the passenger-side rear. A bit of a thunking sound with some
> bumps. Checked the strut at the top where it bolts into the body
> in the "trunk" area, and it was solid as a rock, at least to the
> extent I could move it by trying to budge it with a hundred
> pounds or two of force with my body, so nut not loose. I suspect
> the strut or a damper bushing needs replaced, but it's a little
> hard for me to diagnose. The mechanic said it was fine back in
> 2000, but I think that was before the noise started. Any
> suggestions? The rear suspension components don't seem to get as
> hammered as their relatives up front.
>
> Please go ahead and post about the 15->17mm balljoint upgrade,
> enough so that those of us who might want to do it would have a
> fair idea of what's coming their way.
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>
> Seth wrote:
> > A note about VW rabbits and front and rear brake parts and
> suspensions.
> >
> > Early rabbits had smaller (15mm, IIRC) ball joints than later
> (17mm, I
> > think). A heavier car like an EV might want the later steering
> knuckle
> > and balljoint so they don't break. If they upgraded to the 17mm
> on the
> > stock rabbit, then an EV probably should have that also. Around
> 1980
> > they went to the Kelsey Hayes MkII front caliper, the one Chuck
> has.
> > This caliper lets you bolt in the inexpensive upgrade of vented
> rotors
> > in the front, probably a good idea for a EV. I am pretty sure
> that the
> > easiest way would be to change the knuckle, ball joint caliper
> frame,
> > caliper, hub and wheel bearings as more or less one piece on
> each side.
> > The knuckles and calipers are probably next to free at a
> junkyard and
> > the bearings, hubs, brake pads and ball joints are about $20
> each if you
> > know where to look. Also if you want a high performance pad
> that works
> > on the street, try Hawk HPS compound. I know it has been
> available for
> > CRXs and VWs and it stops VERY well, hot and like a semi-metal
> when
> > cold, and it's about $35. Don't get the black or blue compund,
> they ar
> > race only, stop a bit better when very hot, but have poor cold
> performance.
> >
> > There is another level of upgrade, involving larger diameter
> rotors, but
> > it is involved and probably not what an EV needs.
> >
> > I ramble, but I figure most rabbit EVs out there have old
> balljoints in
> > them, and some are probably in need of an upgrade. There is a
> similar
> > upgrade for golf IIs, but I haven't heard of any on the list.
> If asked I
> > can post about that.
> >
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Seth
> >
> > Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > >
> > > On the Rabbit, when we did the conversion back in '94, we
> > > refurbished the brakes with organic linings. On my steep
> (~20%
> > > grade) hill coming down from the apt, I wanted to know if I
> could
> > > stop myself in case my front hydraulic brakes failed. So
> headed
> > > down the hill and pulled up on the emergency brake handle
> between
> > > the seats. No stop. No fastah, but no stop. The rear brake
> > > linings were the first to go, inside of 10K miles. Hmm, not
> > > good, I thought EVs were supposed to have lower
> maintenance...
> > > So, Preston, the fellow EV'er who helped me convert my
> vehicle,
> > > had had good experience with carbon-kevlar linings from
> > > Porterfield on his VW Vanagon. I ordered up a set of shoes
> with
> > > carbon-kevlar street linings for the rear drums and we
> installed
> > > them. They have basically exceeded my expectations, and
> they're
> > > still going strong some 10K+ miles and several years later.
> Back
> > > to the hill test, and I was impressed! Yank, and come to a
> > > sliding stop, locking up the wheels. Can be done repeatedly
> and
> > > rather reliably, although it's tough on rear tires :-|. So
> I
> > > now felt safer against a runaway on my hill. Next up, my
> front
> > > organics ran out, except this time my inspection method
> failed
> > > me, since I was only seeing the outside shoes through the
> hole on
> > > the disc brakes up front. My mechanic had the car up on the
> > > hoist for the frequent CV boot replacement, and made a
> emphatic
> > > note to me that my linings (the insides) were nearly down to
> the
> > > rivets. Not good! So I had to punt and take him up on his
> offer
> > > (rather than what I was holding out for which was Porterfield
> > > carbon-kevlars on the front too), since he wasn't up for
> letting
> > > my vehicle out of the shop. He produced a nice set of vented
> and
> > > grooved rotors (which was another upgrade angle I was working
> on)
> > > and a set of semi-metallic "rotor eater" linings. Installed,
> and
> > > I could feel the well-known warm-up time (which wasn't long
> > > considering the descent from my apt). Those linings have
> been in
> > > there several years by now, and he says they're doing fine.
> And
> > > I also note that no sweat forms on my brow like it used to
> when I
> > > had a big hill descent in front of my EV. I pretty much take
> it
> > > like all the gas cars do. And when my car was down in the
> South
> > > Bay last year for an "extended period", we had the vehicle
> out on
> > > the freeway (Hi101) doing 70mph for some testing.
> Unfortunately,
> > > came up real fast on a traffic jam and all the brake lights
> lit
> > > up. It was work, but I got 'er hauled down with room to
> spare.
> > > It would help a bit if I had the vacuum assist going, but
> that's
> > > another story...
> > >
> > > Bottom line is from experience I strongly recommend getting
> away
> > > from the stock crap organic linings. Our EVs put a lot of
> heat
> > > on their linings, especially if you are in hilly country. Go
> > > with carbon-kevlar (my first choice) or semi-metallics (the
> > > braking is not so good till they warm up). Porterfield
> likely
> > > does not have shoes for your S-10, but there are probably
> shops
> > > that do. Police vehicles at least used to run semi-metallics
> or
> > > some such. Maybe your Kragen metallics would be a good bet.
> > >
> > --
> > vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
