EV Digest 2680
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
by "EV'r up LATE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) OT: Re: Ni-Cd and Ni-MH from China... an ad I got in the mail
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Emergency Tow Service
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Relay Speed Control (was AC Controllers)
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: batteries for cold weather?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: batteries for cold weather?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: AC controllers
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Escort EV limbo?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Using less batteries. Evercell. Vehicle balancing.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: WOT! Monster cars was:( Better range from less weight)
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: ZAP RAP BO
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ni-Cd and Ni-MH from China... an ad I got in the mail
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Spice girls' vocal concert
by Cougar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Spice girls' vocal concert
by "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) OT: Try to contact Rod Hower
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Corbin Motors (makers of the Sparrow) seems to have gone under
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: CalCars - A non-profit way to get EV's rolling
by Lin Tse Hsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe they meant MPC and not MPG, since their prefab'd spec sheet is geared
for ICE, not ICEless.
Despite the claim that the city mileage increases and freeway mileage
suffers (city stop and go not included?), can it go 100 miles between
charges?
Seems a lengthy calculation since some unknowns are:
depth of charge
charger efficiency
battery charge efficiency
battery temperature
I clicked on specs for 2003 rav4, mileage went up..
And they got the insight right :)
EV'r up late (again)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
I was looking at the numbers for the cost of fuel
and electricity on that page
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16424.shtml
I did not see where they got the mpg figure.
I would have wanted their equation of where the came
up with that mpg.
Fuel prices change, but it will not go down.
Lets up grade the fuel cost to $2/gal (regular).
and electricity has gone up too. The cost of
electricity varies on who your utility is. SMUD
is the best in CA, followed by LAWPD, SDG, some
others, and PGE coming in at the highest.
The lion's share of production EVs were targeted
to California, so lets say the cost of CA electricity
is $.17 pkwh
If they were doing some sort of hokey fuel energy
to kilowatt conversion, it would not be real life.
Reality would be how many miles per charge at 65 mph
by the cost as compared to a RAV4 ICE mpg fuel cost
for the same miles.
RAV4 EV drivers have easily achieved 90 miles on a
full charge with a few miles left just like an ICE
reading empty with a few miles left.
Its my understanding that the RAV4 EV charger is about
5kw into the pack, but 6kw from the source and it takes
6 hours hours for a complete charge, but 4 hours to 80%
(the last two hours a slow taper).
So lets assume 6kw of electricity for 5 hours or 30kwhs.
At $.17 pkwh, that would cost $5.10 .
According to
http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/rav4/specs/rav4_specs.html
a RAV4 ICE would get 24/29 mpg. Lets call it 26.5mpg
At $2 per gallon, 90 miles would be ((90/26.5)*2)= $6.80
Using a cost ratio comparison in a 90 mile run to derive
the mpg of the RAV4 EV:
$6.80 $5.10
----- -----
26.5 mpg x mpg
((6.8/5.1)*26.5)= 35.3 mpg
My calculation is coparinsing only the cost out of pocket,
and makes me think that the page
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16424.shtml
was using emission factor costs that isn't on the Toyota
spec page. Automaker mpg figures do not include pollution
costs or factors.
Perhaps that page gave a high mpg because they included
all the pollution costs?
How does my math look?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> getting a lot of spam these days from businesses in China. This was
> one. For anyone who might be tempted:
I got it too... I strongly suspect that someone has been grepping traffic
on this list
I hope they realize that spam is a sure way to build customer repulsion
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
> I was looking at the numbers for the cost of fuel
> and electricity on that page
> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16424.shtml
>
> I did not see where they got the mpg figure.
> I would have wanted their equation of where the came
> up with that mpg.
I looked into this perhaps two years ago. The gummint uses formulas
for calculating equivalent MPG ratings for electrics and hybrids to
use in corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) calculations. These
numbers have no other use so far as I know. As I recall the formulas
don't consider the difference efficiencies of electric motors versus
infernal combustion engines.
If the difference in efficiency is ignored then 1 gallon of gasoline is
equivalent to about 35 kilowatthours. In the real world 1 gallon of
gasoline will do the work of about 10 kwhr.
Let's consider the RAV4EV's sister, the ICE RAV4 which according
to MSN Carpoint gets 25/31 city/highway mpg. Let's guess 29 mpg
for mixed city/highway. Using the 1 equals 10 rule of thumb yields a
probable miles per kwhr of about 2.9 which is what I'd expect for a vehicle
the size and shape of the RAV4. So if one were trying to estimate electric
consumption and costs the 2.9 figure would be accurate enough.
I think the 104 mpg figure was derived by measuring kwhr per mile
and multiplying that by about 35. 2.9 times 35 is close to 104.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been using AAA membership Emergency Tow Service.
I am not talking insurance, I am POSTing about Emergency
Tow Services.
This year's bill will be $78 for a free 100 mile emergency
service.
I would like to know if other EV drivers have a tow service.
If so, what company do they use, how much is it per year,
and what services do they get?
Since no one is hiring, I thought I would see if I could
$ave on another Emergency Tow Service.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What does your charger amperage look like? Even with a high current
charger it would be a pain to switch from on battery to the other, even for
only three batteries. For a 12, 24, 48 set you have 7 batteries to
individually charge. For a 12, 24, 48, 96 you are up to 15. Your charger
connection is then more complex then the controller.
Don't get me wrong, I admire your efforts. Just not sure if the patent is
worth the filing cost. Good luck.
Oh, and I am glad to see you wear a helmet on the minibike.
At 09:29 PM 3/25/2003, you wrote:
John, This works ok on my minibike. I don't rotate my batteries, but I do
charge them individually ( I only have one 12v charger). I use 3 12v
batteries, one by itself and the other two in series for 24 volts. On the
12 v battery I get to 10 mph. The 24v bank takes me to 20 mph. With both
in series I get 30 mph, which is really to fast for a 150 pound minibike
with only a rear brake. You can see how the circuit works in the patent
file at http://www.geocities.com/thomassonmj/us6140799.pdf , see figure 1.
Or go to http://www.geocities.com/thomassonmj/electric_drive.html for more
general information. I can send you details of the relay control circuit
and where I got my parts if you are interested. Its all pretty simple
stuff. Mark Thomasson
See the bike:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/439.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Peter VanDerWal'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Ev (E-mail)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: AC controllers
> Would this be a good arrangement for a go-kart ev? What if you you three
12
> volt deep cycle batteries and rotate them. Not too difficult a task with a
> go-kart.
>
> John Shelton
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 2:08 AM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: AC controllers
>
>
> Oops, forgot to mention.
> Contactor controllers normally rearrange the pack into series/parallel
> setups.
> IE. a 48V pack of 4 12V batteries will be arranged as all four in
> parallel for 12V, two sets of two for 24V and all together for 48V. Plus
> usually a starting resistor in series with the 12V setup. This gives
> four steps, plus stop.
>
> Tapping the pack at individual batteries like you suggest means that
> none of the batteries will be discharged to the same level. The first
> battery gets used all of the time and the one at the other end of the
> string hardly ever gets used.
>
> This causes the pack to become unbalanced(a bad thing). Your range will
> be limited by the first battery which will run out fairly quickly, while
> 1/2 the batteries are hardly discharged at all.
>
> Range from this setup will be about 1/4 the range of using all the
> batteries as one pack with a PWM controller or a series/parallel
> contactor controller.
>
> > > various voltages. For example, with seven batteries in the bank, it
is
> > > possible to rearrange them to get seven voltage steps, from zero volts
> to
> > > the voltage of all the batteries in series. With 15 batteries, 15
steps
> are
> > > possible. The trick is to rearrange the batteries without using an
> > > unreasonable number of contactors. See
> > > http://www.geocities.com/thomassonmj/electric_drive.html for a
diagram
> of
> > > how this may be done. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/439.html shows
> the
> > > test platform. I started small with a minibike and only 3 voltage
steps
> > > (using three 12 volt batteries) in the control system. The three
relays
> and
> > > a multiposition switch comprising the control system cost less than
$20.
> > > Electro-mechanical relays are much easier to trouble shoot and repair
> that
> > > electronic FET's and integrated circuits, and more efficient. Solid
> state
> > > relays could also be used. Regenerative braking occurs automatically
as
> you
> > > back off the throttle, or not at all if the throttle goes immediately
to
> > > zero.
> > >
> > > Criticize freely... I can take it!
> > >
> > > Thanks for your feedback.
> > >
> > > Mark Thomasson
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 6:59 PM
> > > Subject: Re: AC controllers
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Mark
> > > ...................
> > > >
> > > > Tell us of your project? what do you want it to do?
> > > >
> > > ....................
> > >
> > --
> > EVDL
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Andrew,
A pack of twelve (12) T145s, in an uninsulated thin wooden box, were able
to propel my 2700 pound gross weight 1969 VW Bug, not including my weight
and bowling balls, to and from a bowling alley that was 11 miles from
home in 10 F weather at an average speed of 35 mph on in town roads. I
would think an insulated, heated pack of a scaled up size for the gross
weight of your VW Bus should give you that 30 mile winter range you are
looking for.
Menlo Park III,
Bill, Glastonbury, CT
Driving EVs for 20 Years
Member NEEAA
New England Electric Auto Association
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 01:25:23 -0500 Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
>
> > Subject:> Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
> > From:> Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date:> Tue, 25 Mar 2003 06:56:51 -0500
> >
> > In really broad terms, this is what most nickel based batteries
> do. They
> > are as a rule, much less affected by the rate at which the energy
> is
> > withdrawn, and much less affected by lower temperatures. Not
> immune (it
> > gets really cold near Boston) but less affected. NiMH starts to
> get soft
> > at 20F, for example. Lead by comparison, is near useless at that
> > temperature. I have ridden in vehicles powered by both chemistries
> and
> > there is a big difference when it is cold.
>
> Seth
> I've been leaning towards nicel batteries (I was thinking flooded
> Ni-Cad) for the cold weather.
> I'm planning a VW bus conversion for local (15 miles per day)
> driving
> around Ann Arbor. Moderate hills, top speed 50 mph, all stop and
> go.
> I figure I could live with 35 mph up hill (that's what people expect
>
> from a VW bus anyway) but I don't want it to drop to 10 mph in the
> cold.
> The bus will spend most of it's time in the garage (I work at home)
> so
> lately I've been thinking that lead acid might be OK if heated and
> insulated.
> So the question is given a 12 mile round trip with an hour parked
> (no
> charging) how cold can it get before my batteries cool down to the
> point
> that I can't meet my performance goals.
>
> Then again after I kill my first pack you guys will have the
> evercells
> figured out so I can substitute a high voltage pack and try for a
> high
> performance bus. Wouldn't that blow some minds!
> Would I trash the power train if I had enough amps to spin the
> wheels?
> I'm not sure I want to even consider the handling issues.....
>
> --
> Andrew (make no small plans) King
> Ann Arbor Michigan
> technology is the answer, what was the question?
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I don't know what the specs of your bus are, or the grade of the
hill, those two should give an idea of the power required.
If you try first with lead, all evenly insulated and heated, then you
might be just fine, as it is a short commute. Good thermal management is
a goal to strive for anyways. I don't like to see lead below 40F, or
above 90F as a rule of thumb.
Make sure your walled can handle NiCd batteries, SAFT can be expensive,
there are others but they are less common.
Seth
Andrew wrote:
>
> > Subject:> Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
> > From:> Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date:> Tue, 25 Mar 2003 06:56:51 -0500
> >
> > In really broad terms, this is what most nickel based batteries do. They
> > are as a rule, much less affected by the rate at which the energy is
> > withdrawn, and much less affected by lower temperatures. Not immune (it
> > gets really cold near Boston) but less affected. NiMH starts to get soft
> > at 20F, for example. Lead by comparison, is near useless at that
> > temperature. I have ridden in vehicles powered by both chemistries and
> > there is a big difference when it is cold.
>
> Seth
> I've been leaning towards nicel batteries (I was thinking flooded
> Ni-Cad) for the cold weather.
> I'm planning a VW bus conversion for local (15 miles per day) driving
> around Ann Arbor. Moderate hills, top speed 50 mph, all stop and go.
> I figure I could live with 35 mph up hill (that's what people expect
> from a VW bus anyway) but I don't want it to drop to 10 mph in the cold.
> The bus will spend most of it's time in the garage (I work at home) so
> lately I've been thinking that lead acid might be OK if heated and
> insulated.
> So the question is given a 12 mile round trip with an hour parked (no
> charging) how cold can it get before my batteries cool down to the point
> that I can't meet my performance goals.
>
> Then again after I kill my first pack you guys will have the evercells
> figured out so I can substitute a high voltage pack and try for a high
> performance bus. Wouldn't that blow some minds!
> Would I trash the power train if I had enough amps to spin the wheels?
> I'm not sure I want to even consider the handling issues.....
>
> --
> Andrew (make no small plans) King
> Ann Arbor Michigan
> technology is the answer, what was the question?
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's pretty simple really! (I work for the Gov't. I know how these guys
think :-))
If you convert the average BTU's available in gasoline, 121000. (11400 to
128000 is the range I found)
and the btu's available in a kw/hr, 3412.
Then gasoline has the equivalent of 35.46 kw/hrs. Pretty close to Tom's 35
figure.
The Rav4EV needs 30.5kw/100miles. So 35.46 kw/hrs will take it 116.2 miles.
I used the 2003 Rav4EV mileage figures.
Stay Charged!
Hump
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Shay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:55 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:55 PM
> Subject: Re: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
>
>
> > I was looking at the numbers for the cost of fuel
> > and electricity on that page
> > http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16424.shtml
> >
> > I did not see where they got the mpg figure.
> > I would have wanted their equation of where the came
> > up with that mpg.
>
> I looked into this perhaps two years ago. The gummint uses formulas
> for calculating equivalent MPG ratings for electrics and hybrids to
> use in corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) calculations. These
> numbers have no other use so far as I know. As I recall the formulas
> don't consider the difference efficiencies of electric motors versus
> infernal combustion engines.
>
> If the difference in efficiency is ignored then 1 gallon of
> gasoline is
> equivalent to about 35 kilowatthours. In the real world 1 gallon of
> gasoline will do the work of about 10 kwhr.
>
> Let's consider the RAV4EV's sister, the ICE RAV4 which according
> to MSN Carpoint gets 25/31 city/highway mpg. Let's guess 29 mpg
> for mixed city/highway. Using the 1 equals 10 rule of thumb yields a
> probable miles per kwhr of about 2.9 which is what I'd expect
> for a vehicle
> the size and shape of the RAV4. So if one were trying to
> estimate electric
> consumption and costs the 2.9 figure would be accurate enough.
>
> I think the 104 mpg figure was derived by measuring kwhr per mile
> and multiplying that by about 35. 2.9 times 35 is close to 104.
>
> Tom Shay
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a link to some info on a speed control like the one Lee describes.
It still has the problem with Peukert but it does deal with the balancing
problem.
http://www.redrok.com/ev.htm#batpack
http://www.redrok.com/images/batpack.gif
I like the modular approach but it has some problems. One would be that if
one of the diodes should fail open then all of the voltage from all the
packs that are turned on will appear across the mosfet of the damaged pack
if it is turned off. Which eliminates the advantage of using lower voltage
parts.
Andre' B. andre-at-usermail.com
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:27 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: AC controllers
Lee Hart wrote:
<< snip >>
Why? I'm wondering why you couldn't do your 1-2-4-8 switching with 4
SPDT contactors like this (view with fixed width font):
_______
| | K4
+__|__ NC O ___________to motor +
48v ___ / COM
| NO O/
|_______|_________
|
_______ |
| | K3 |
+__|__ NO O _______|
24V ___ / COM
| NC O/
|_______|_________
|
_______ |
| | K2 |
+__|__ NO O _______|
12V ___ / COM
| NC O/
|_______|_________
|
_______ |
| | K1 |
+__|__ NO O _______|
6V ___ / COM
| NC O/
|_______|____________to motor -
This only requires 4 contactors. You can still get any voltage from 0v
to 90v in 6v steps. No combination of contactors K1-K4 being on/off ever
shorts any battery.
You might want a 5th contactor (K5) for an all-off condition (as shown,
when K1-K4 are all off they short the motor, which would brake it to a
stop).
The contactors could all be SPST if the NC-COM contact were replaced
with diodes. You couldn't do regen with the diodes, however.
<< snip >>
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's why I got an equity line of credit to buy mine.
Low interest rate, and the interest is tax detuctable.
James
Quoting "Christian T. Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I think, at least for me, the biggest obstacle to purchasing an EV is
> getting the bank to recognize the vehicle price for what it its. I mean,
> the
> Kelly Blue Book doesn't show anything for a conversion. Banks, being
> conservative, won't finance a newly-converted older car at the new car
> price. Some folks may have no trouble getting a signature loan for
> $6,000,
> or just paying out of pocket, but I don't know that most people can. If
> the
> banks were a bit more open-minded, I would have bough that EV VW Pickup
> by
> now.
>
> Christian
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been reading this MPG thread with interest.
Here in MD, the electricity rate is about 8c per kw/hr. Actually more like 7
and a mumble. Then again most of our power comes from Calvert Cliffs (nuke.
We so love the nuke) so it's somewhat immune to the price fixing going on in
other places.
Question: Is 17c per kw/hr anywhere near "reasonable" as far as the cost to
generate/deliver/deal with regs/etc? If so, then Bruce's calculations point
out that an Insight/Prius is a more economical and perhaps eco-friendly car
than either a RAV E4 or even my Prizm.
Are we going in the right direction?
CZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:54 AM
Subject: RE: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
> It's pretty simple really! (I work for the Gov't. I know how these guys
> think :-))
>
> If you convert the average BTU's available in gasoline, 121000. (11400 to
> 128000 is the range I found)
> and the btu's available in a kw/hr, 3412.
>
> Then gasoline has the equivalent of 35.46 kw/hrs. Pretty close to Tom's 35
> figure.
>
> The Rav4EV needs 30.5kw/100miles. So 35.46 kw/hrs will take it 116.2
miles.
>
> I used the 2003 Rav4EV mileage figures.
>
>
> Stay Charged!
>
> Hump
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas Shay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:55 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:55 PM
> > Subject: Re: RAV4 EV gets 104 mpg
> >
> >
> > > I was looking at the numbers for the cost of fuel
> > > and electricity on that page
> > > http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16424.shtml
> > >
> > > I did not see where they got the mpg figure.
> > > I would have wanted their equation of where the came
> > > up with that mpg.
> >
> > I looked into this perhaps two years ago. The gummint uses formulas
> > for calculating equivalent MPG ratings for electrics and hybrids to
> > use in corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) calculations. These
> > numbers have no other use so far as I know. As I recall the formulas
> > don't consider the difference efficiencies of electric motors versus
> > infernal combustion engines.
> >
> > If the difference in efficiency is ignored then 1 gallon of
> > gasoline is
> > equivalent to about 35 kilowatthours. In the real world 1 gallon of
> > gasoline will do the work of about 10 kwhr.
> >
> > Let's consider the RAV4EV's sister, the ICE RAV4 which according
> > to MSN Carpoint gets 25/31 city/highway mpg. Let's guess 29 mpg
> > for mixed city/highway. Using the 1 equals 10 rule of thumb yields a
> > probable miles per kwhr of about 2.9 which is what I'd expect
> > for a vehicle
> > the size and shape of the RAV4. So if one were trying to
> > estimate electric
> > consumption and costs the 2.9 figure would be accurate enough.
> >
> > I think the 104 mpg figure was derived by measuring kwhr per mile
> > and multiplying that by about 35. 2.9 times 35 is close to 104.
> >
> > Tom Shay
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do front drive vehicles do at 50/50% front/rear balance. If using
Evercells one could get by with less batteries and less weight. It might
cause some problems when hill climbing. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 2:18 PM
Subject: EV digest 2678
>
> EV Digest 2678
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
> 1) TdS Report #1: Here Comes the 2003 Tour de Sol
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 2) Ethanol battery?
> by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 3) WOT! Monster cars was:( Better range from less weight)
> by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 4) RE: Escort EV limbo?
> by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 5) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
> by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 6) Re: Escort EV limbo?
> by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 7) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
> by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 8) Re: That time of the year again...
> by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 9) RE: EV Digest Mode
> by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 10) RE: Evercells versus Yellow tops
> by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 11) Re: New and improved bumper sticker design
> by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 12) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
> by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 13) Evercel Capacity
> by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 14) Re: Evercel Capacity
> by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 15) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
> by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 16) Hot Nickel
> by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 17) Re: Vodka Fuel Cell?! Ethanol battery?
> by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 18) RE: Vodka Fuel Cell?! Ethanol battery?
> by "amadare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 19) RE: WOT! Monster cars was:( Better range from less weight)
> by Humphrey Timothy H Contr AFRL/IFEC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 20) ZAP highway EV
> by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 21) ZAP RAP BO
> by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 22) (no subject)
> by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 23) Re: AC controllers
> by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Subject: Re: WOT! Monster cars was:( Better range from less weight)
> Lee Hart wrote:
> Humphrey Timothy H Contr AFRL/IFEC wrote:
> > OK I found a link [monster Camaro]... Most of them, that I've seen,
> > are not this "refined" and really do look like some backyard
> > freakazoid weekend project thingy.
>
> Yes; that's it. The ones I've seen around here are also in that
> category. Badly done.
>
> However, it's the concept I find interesting. Start with a truck frame
> that already has the wheels, brakes, springs, suspension, and weight
> carrying capacity. Place a small light streamlined car body on it. Use
> the weight savings to add more batteries than could have been safely
> carried by the original car or truck.
>
> Forget the silly monster truck tires and 3 foot ground clearance, of
> course.
The car-body-on-truck-chassis idea has shown up at the Tour de Sol several
times. For example the University of Maine Solar Vehicle Team started with
a GMC-S15. From the 2002 Tour de Sol Reports ...
We then went on to look at the Phantom Sol. It also started life as a
pickup truck, but you wouldn't guess that by looking at it now. It is
low, low to the ground with an aerodynamic body that just slips
through the air. She opened the rear battery access panel. "We use
to have foam box covers. Before you couldn't access the batteries
without taking the whole body off." The car has 2 strings of 20
8-Volt blocks, wired in parallel. They feed a Raptor 1200 Amp
controller. "At full open it draws 600 amps from each pack," said
Jeff Bartosiewicz.
--
Mike Bianchi
Foveal Systems
190 Loantaka Way
Madison NJ 07940-1910
+1 973 822-2085 Voice and Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Create videos of auditorium and classroom presentations without a crew?
Yes!
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. They don't mention prices on their used vehicles. If you make a bid
and it's too low they just won't respond. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 1:53 PM
Subject: ZAP RAP BO
> A response from ZAP.
>
> Typical sales type and no he does not remember me (he
> always confuses my blazer with another).
>
> Bottom line:
> They do not want to put prices on their page.
>
>
>
> -
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:16:29 -0800
> From: "Alex Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: re: rap page
>
> > On http://zapworld.com/new-cars.htm the link says EVs for
> rent, but on the linked page http://zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
> it does not have any EVs for rent. Also on
> http://zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
> You list Price: best offer
> You should put a price not just best offer. <
>
> Hello, Bruce! Now I'm sure you already own an electric car.
> >From your questions, though, you sound very interested.
> We've been getting many, many offers and questions. Since
> most of these cars are used, we are trying to match people's
> needs with what we have and/or finding them a car through
> the ZAP network we are creating. Are you still driving that
> sky blue blazer? Looking for an upgrade? We accept
> trade-ins.
>
> Alex Campbell
> Corporate Communications
> ZAP
> www.zapworld.com
> Stock Symbol:ZAPZ
> direct (707) 824-4150 x 241
> main (707) 824-4150
> fax (707)824-4159
> 117 Morris Street
> Sebastopol, California
> 95472 USA
>
> ZAP... Clearly a leader in transportation
> -
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I responded to this spam and got the same spam in reply. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 10:11 PM
Subject: Ni-Cd and Ni-MH from China... an ad I got in the mail
> getting a lot of spam these days from businesses in China. This was
> one. For anyone who might be tempted:
>
> From: michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:56:02 +0800
>
> Dear Sirs,
>
> Thank you for your attention to the following comments!
> This is Michael with Unitech Battery Limited from China saying hello
> to you! Nice to meet you on the net.
> Our company specializes in producing high quality Ni-CD
> and Ni-MH batteries, including cylindrical, prismatic and 9V series,
> especially in high temperature batteries and high rate discharge
> batteries, these products are widely used in cordless phones, cellular
> phones, transceivers, remote controlled toys, emergency lightings,
> garden lightings, power tools, household appliances, office
> equipments, etc.
> Please browse our website www.unitechbatt.com and
> www.globalsources.com/unitech8.co for detailed information. Since we
> are the manufacturer focuses on the making of Ni-CD and NI-MH
> rechargeable batteries, so our products are all with the best quality
> and low prices, i know from internet that your esteemed company maybe
> need some batteries, i write you this e-mail and see if there is an
> opportunity for us to cooperate with each other. maybe our products
> can lower down your cost and thus improve your profits. If you want
> some samples for test or promotional purposes, please do not hesitate
> to let me know. We also welcome OEM and ODM orders. Your prompt reply
> would be highly appreciated!
>
>
> Yours sincerely!
>
> Michael
>
>
> Unitech Battery Limited
> ADD:No.4 Kaiming Road, Jintang Industrial
> Zone,Liuyue,Henggang,Shenzhen,China
> Tel:0086-755-28509555(Extention 1047)
> Fax:0086-755-28506266
> www.unitechbatt.com or www.globalsources.com/unitech8.co
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:35:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Lin Tse Hsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: CalCars - A non-profit way to get EV's rolling
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Felix is more diplomatic in his response than what I
would like to
> say.
>
> JRAB
That's because Felix bothered to read the message for
content rather
than just glossing over it. But, don't worried about
it. It's only
human.
> >From Felix:
>
> Lin Tse Hsu: I'm delighted you're a supporter of the
idea of bringing
> plug-in vehicles to market. Perhaps together we can
work on the best
> ways
> to make that happen!
>
Thanks for the encouragement, Felix. Judging from the
volume of junk
that shows up on the list (not what people post,
that's good stuff;
it's what they post *about*, like this junk stock for
classic
roadster deal), the EV field tends to attract shady
characters.
It is important, especially during this age of focus
on ethics.
> You ask many entirely appropriate questions, which
we feel very
> comfortable
> addressing. Here's a brief answer to your questions,
some of which
> will
> become part of our FAQ.
>
> We are currently an "initiative", sponsored by a
501(c)3
> that has been in
> existence for almost a decade, and has agreed to
accept donations to
> get
> this effort going.
>
Sorry for the misunderstanding, then. Donation is
fine. Somehow
I misunderstood it as "prepayment". My mistake.
> I'm the founder of CalCars. I've spent the past two
years promoting
> the
> idea that we can use the unique resources and energy
we have in
> California
> to jump-start the adoption of advanced technology
vehicles
> through grass-roots effort. I've recruited several
dozen people to
> help
> develop and evolve the strategy. I've paid for the
preparations for
> this
> out of my own pocket. I'm not a wealthy person, but
I felt this was
> the
> best way I could use my time, and the longer I've
been working on it,
> the
> more convinced I am that this is the most important
cause I could
> devote
> myself to. If you want to know more about me,
including my decade of
> work
> in nonprofit energy conservation and other efforts
beginning in the
> mid-1970s (and my entirely honorable efforts in the
dot-com era),
> there is
That matters less these days. I have dot-com era
experience too.
I have been counseled that it makes me look shallow,
greedy, and
opportunistic. And that is only from the word
"start-up". Read
more, and the dead company's name hints corporate
malfeasance,
incompetent stewardship, and simple dishonesty to
investors. The
more I explain myself, the worse it gets. The "I only
work here"
excuse doesn't work, since as a senior member of the
techincal
staff, I "should" have put my foot down. Saying
nothing (or more
accurately, being squelched by upper management) only
makes things
look worse for me. Like what I alluded to above, it's
human
nature to gloss over details, just like the previous
poster, and
paint with a broad brush.
> If you are still concerned that this is a
"fly-by-night"
> effort, I hope the
> endorsers listed at
> http://www.calcars.org/kudos.html
> will provide some reassurance.
>
> We also have the counsel of one of the more
established San Francisco
> Bay
> Area law firms, Gray Cary Ware
> http://www.gcw.com
>
None of these mean too much to me, since established
law firms
can also be bought by rotten entities. Need I remind
you of my
experiences?
I am not making accusations that this is a
fly-by-night effort. I
am just warning against inconsistent interpretations
of the tax
law. In the EV field, already so tainted by scammers
and sleezeballs,
even slight inconsistencies and carelessness can be
damning.
> We hope to raise funds initially from up
approximately 1000 Charter
> Sponsors, at $95, sufficient to bring on 3 or 4
consultants to move
> this
> initiative forward, including people with
substantial industry
> expertise
> and credibility. We intend to advance this effort to
the point where
> we can
> make a credible proposal (buttressed by the number
of Sponsors who are
> demonstrably serious buyers) to one of the car
companies that might
> retrofit their existing vehicles, most likely
Toyota, Hyundai, Honda
> or
> Ford, see
> http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html
>
> Our plans for raising revenue begin with Charter
Sponsors, and
> perhaps a
> dozen individuals who will commit substantial funds
to purchase and
> help us
> test and develop a series of working road-ready
prototypes. At the
> point at
> which we have reached these goals, we hope to be
able to raise funds
> from
> partnerships from corporations that stand to gain
from this effort,
> as well
> as grants from foundations, government and other
public sources.
>
This sounds very reasonable, and it is a very worthy
use of donations
to hire consultants to prepare proposals. Neither the
IRS or any
oversight will have any trouble with this; it's the
acceptible way
to do things.
...
> We'd be very happy to enter into a dialogue with all
current EV
> drivers and
> others who are looking for a "way out" of the
current
> highly unpromising
> future for advanced technology vehicles.
>
I admire your devotion to a very worthy cause, which
will not only
target many of the obvious gains, but will also
accelerate the
development of technologies facilitating the pure EV.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
