EV Digest 2691
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Rich, are you making bldc controllers?
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Hart balancer musings
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(Laurie David's RAV4 EV)-long
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Magnecharger performance
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Fw:OT Making the degree sign
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: motors with no magnetic fields.
by "S. David Lalonde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: motors with no magnetic fields.
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EVLN(Laurie David's RAV4 EV)-long
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Rich, are you making bldc controllers?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Magnecharger performance
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Corbin Motors (makers of the Sparrow) seems to have gone under
by "evranger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Hart balancer musings
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Magnecharger performance
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Magnecharger performance
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: ampabout
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor, Surprise!
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: ampabout
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: CurrentEliminator NEWS
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) (no subject)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rhett T. George)
--- Begin Message ---
BLDC = brushless DC motors - This is what Rich runs in the minibike from
hell, with one example of the controller. Wonder if any listees want a low
voltage controller for a bldc system - I'm not in need of Rich's products
right now, but chargers and dc-to-dc converters *are* a known market, even
if people aren't spending the bucks for a T-Rex or Raptor.
> Don't know what a bldc controller is, but I've sent
> info saying where to get DCP controllers, if this is
> what you mean. Lots of people _talk_ about needing
> them, but few are buying; although Rich does have a
> list for people who need DCDC converters.
>
> --- The Levine Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I read elsewhere that Rich Rudman will be making
> > bldc controllers - is this
> > true, and if so, why not make more T-Rex and Raptor
> > controllers, which
> > already has a market (and plenty of people waiting
> > for new ones)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello:
As I've mentioned here before, I am personally responsible for driving
Roger Stockton and Lee Hart nuts as they supported me building my Hart
Balancer. This has almost nothing to do with the elegant simplicity of
Lee's design and is mostly due to my EE newbie status. I know a little
programming and have done some Basic STAMP programming and projects and
thought I could just sit down a slap together the balancer. Along the
way I think I've stumbeld into every pothole out there and was rescued
by Lee and Roger.
My Balancer is back up and running today, after I zorched the VICOR
DC/DC. The output of the balancer may be seen at:
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/Falcon_032903.htm
What I have done is the following:
1) The serial programming port of my Hart Balancer is plugged into a
java powered TINI from Dallas Semi/Maxim.
2) The eMeter is also plugged into a serial port on the TINI.
3) The TINI is plugged into a Linksys WET11 wireless link allowing me to
see the referenced web page from indoors on my LAN, or via the WAN at
work, or even outside the country as I have tried.
The TINI grabs and parses the two serial streams and serves up the web
page. At present the individual battery temp monitors are "fake". But
I intend to epoxy a temp sensor down to each battery and then be able to
watch the 11 battery temps in near real time. What the display is
showing is the individual battery voltages and the number of balncer
cycles each batt has received. My present algorithm is to measure each
battery and charge the lowest for 2.5 minutes. The reason there is such
a disparity in the attached display is my zorched DC/DC. While it was
out of service for several weeks a wimpy 6amp "blinky" charger tried to
stand in for it. This little off the shelf auto battery charger barely
creaked above 14.0v which wasn't enought to fully balance my Optima
YT's. Normally this pack is balanced well within 0.2 volts from highest
to lowest. With the VICOR replaced I am certain it will quickly be back
in balance.
Rich Rudman: You posted a while back that you'd like to sit at your
desk and see the temp and voltage of each individual battery. Here is
such a system. One of your old MKII regs is on batt #10, ready to clamp
it as it will undoubtedly be the first to go high. I like both the
active, Juice 'em Up approach of the Hart Balancer and the passive Clamp
'em Down approach of the Rudman Regulators. Both will probably have a
place in my installation as I think the two working together will allow
for faster charge times and better protection.
On my list for improvements:
1) get the individual temp sensors down on each batt
2) track lifetime vs. per charge history
3) jam all this gear in the car, as Lee has designed the Balancer to run
on discharge as well as charge. If I stick the TINI and Linsys in the
car, I won't even need to plug it in to get it on the 'net.
4) right now the Balancer enables or disables my dumb offboard
ferroresonnant charger. i'd like the Balancer to direct it to start with
a bulk charge and then throttle back at some set point. Eventually
would like to add a Brusa or PFC and have the Balancer chat with those.
5) redesign my TINI aggregation/parsing/webserver software either to do
a UDP "push" or servlet or applet for near real time constant updating.
6) NiZn batteries, an active battery cooling system, and the appropriate
charge regime which I'm sure Smalley/Rudman/Sheer/Evercel and other
brave experimenters will have decided upon by the time I accomplish 1-5
above.
I hope you LiOn experimenters have yourselves a Battery management
system. For the rest of you who have crawled around your battery boxes
with a DVM, I reccommend Lee's extensible rig. This winter it was a lot
nicer to sit down at a desktop in the toasty house, or use a wireless
laptop in the kitchen to see what was cooking in the garage.
Happy balancing....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And maybe a little off topic too ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Running at 325 volts it will put 18 amps into the pack. For a total wattage
of 5,850 at the pack.
Not too bad, but I wonder if it could do *more*. On a hard regen the pack
can suck 100 amps into itself; and Hawker says there is no technical limit
to how much power the batteries can suck (up to a voltage point, then you
need to back off). Are there bigger MagneCharger systems than the Type II's?
Wondering if he can get 3 phase into the house :-)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This worked better for me. Lawrence Rhodes.....
http://searchwin2000.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid1_gci847800,00.html
Special ASCII symbols can be generated in common versions of Windows
applications by activating the keyboard NUM LOCK function, pressing the ALT
key, and entering certain numbers in the numeric keypad (located on the
right-hand end of the keyboard) while the ALT key is held down. The symbol
appears when the ALT key is released, after the number has been entered.
The following table denotes the symbols available using this technique.
These symbols are generally not found on keyboards, but they are viewable in
most word processors and Web browsers.
An extended set of symbols is viewable in more advanced Web browsers. We are
currently preparing a table of extended symbols available with Unicode.
Symbol Activate NUM LOCK,
hold ALT down, and
enter these numerals Description Example of usage
� 15 Wingding
� 20 Section or paragraph symbol ... as seen in �2.3 ...
� 21 Section or subsection symbol Please refer to �3.5.5. ...
� 128 Non-English text
� 129 Non-English text
� 130 Accented letter e caf�
� 131 Non-English text
� 132 Non-English text
� 133 Non-English text
� 134 Non-English text
� 135 Non-English text gar�on
� 136 Non-English text
� 137 Non-English text
� 138 Non-English text
� 139 Non-English text
� 140 Non-English text
� 141 Non-English text
� 142 Non-English text
� 143 Non-English text �ngstr�m
� 144 Non-English text
� 145 Latin or ancient plural,
technical text formul�, antenn�
� 146 Ancient spelling �sop's fables
� 147 Non-English text
� 148 Non-English text �ngstr�m
� 149 Non-English text
� 150 Non-English text
� 151 Non-English text
� 152 Non-English text
� 153 Non-English text
� 154 Non-English text
� 155 Cents in American currency $0.25 = 25�
� 156 Pounds in English currency The magazine costs �1.56
� 157 Yen in Japanese currency The book costs �2,530
f 159 Mathematical function symbol f(x) = 2x� + 3x + 5
� 160 Accented letter a Bogot�, Tenochtitl�n
� 161 Non-English text
� 162 Non-English text
� 163 Non-English text
� 164 Non-English text se�or, El Ni�o
� 165 Non-English text
� 166 Superscript letter a
� 167 Degree symbol
(thermal or angular) 68 �F = 20 �C
cos 60� = 0.500
� 168 Inverted query symbol �Tequila, se�or?
� 170 Logical negation symbol �(�A) = A
� 171 Text representation of 1/2 7� inches of snow
� 172 Text representation of 1/4 Less than � inch of rain
� 173 Inverted exclamation mark �Tequila, por favor!
� 174 Opening quotation marks
(alternative)
� 175 Closing quotation marks
(alternative)
� 179 Technical text
� 225 Technical text
� 230 Lowercase Greek mu
Symbol for micro (10-6) 1 �F = 10-6 F
� 241 Plus-or-minus sign 220 ohms � 5 %
� 246 Division sign 24 � 6 = 4
� 250 Multiplication sign (alternative),
especially used in unit descriptors 25 kg � m / s�
� 253 Exponent 2 (quantity squared) x� + y� = z�
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 3:22 PM
Subject: Fw: Making the degree sign
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 12:57 PM
> Subject: Making the degree sign
>
>
> > Here is the DOS ASCII list with a few notations:
> >
> > ASC value symbol
> > 0
> > 1
> > 2
> > 3
> > 4 End transmission
> > 5
> > 6 ACK
> > 7 Bell
> > 8 backspace
> > 9
> > 10 line feed
> >
> > 11
> > 12 form feed
> > 13 carriage return
> > 14
> > 15
> > 16
> > 17
> > 18
> > 19
> > 20
> > 21
> > 22
> > 23
> > 24
> > 25
> > 26
> > 27 Escape
> > 28
> > 29
> > 30
> > 31
> > 32 space
> > 33 !
> > 34 "
> > 35 #
> > 36 $
> > 37 %
> > 38 &
> > 39 '
> > 40 (
> > 41 )
> > 42 *
> > 43 +
> > 44 ,
> > 45 -
> > 46 .
> > 47 /
> > 48 0
> > 49 1
> > 50 2
> > 51 3
> > 52 4
> > 53 5
> > 54 6
> > 55 7
> > 56 8
> > 57 9
> > 58 :
> > 59 ;
> > 60 <
> > 61 =
> > 62 >
> > 63 ?
> > 64 @
> > 65 A
> > 66 B
> > 67 C
> > 68 D
> > 69 E
> > 70 F
> > 71 G
> > 72 H
> > 73 I
> > 74 J
> > 75 K
> > 76 L
> > 77 M
> > 78 N
> > 79 O
> > 80 P
> > 81 Q
> > 82 R
> > 83 S
> > 84 T
> > 85 U
> > 86 V
> > 87 W
> > 88 X
> > 89 Y
> > 90 Z
> > 91 [
> > 92 \
> > 93 ]
> > 94 ^
> > 95 _
> > 96 `
> > 97 a
> > 98 b
> > 99 c
> > 100 d
> > 101 e
> > 102 f
> > 103 g
> > 104 h
> > 105 i
> > 106 j
> > 107 k
> > 108 l
> > 109 m
> > 110 n
> > 111 o
> > 112 p
> > 113 q
> > 114 r
> > 115 s
> > 116 t
> > 117 u
> > 118 v
> > 119 w
> > 120 x
> > 121 y
> > 122 z
> > 123 {
> > 124 |
> > 125 }
> > 126 ~
> > 127 five sided box with a point on top, end of ASCII
> > 128 ?
> > 129 �
> > 130 ,
> > 131 f
> > 132 "
> > 133 .
> > 134 ?
> > 135 ?
> > 136 ^
> > 137 ?
> > 138 S
> > 139 <
> > 140 O
> > 141 �
> > 142 Z
> > 143 �
> > 144 �
> > 145 '
> > 146 '
> > 147 "
> > 148 "
> > 149 .
> > 150 -
> > 151 -
> > 152 ~
> > 153 T
> > 154 s
> > 155 >
> > 156 o
> > 157 �
> > 158 z
> > 159 Y
> > 160
> > 161 �
> > 162 �
> > 163 �
> > 164 �
> > 165 �
> > 166 �
> > 167 �
> > 168 �
> > 169 �
> > 170 �
> > 171 � 1/2
> > 172 �
> > 173 �
> > 174 �
> > 175 �
> > 176 � squiggle, not degree
> > 177 �
> > 178 �
> > 179 � line art to form tables in DOS
> > 180 �
> > 181 �
> > 182 �
> > 183 �
> > 184 �
> > 185 �
> > 186 �
> > 187 �
> > 188 �
> > 189 �
> > 190 �
> > 191 �
> > 192 �
> > 193 �
> > 194 �
> > 195 �
> > 196 �
> > 197 �
> > 198 �
> > 199 �
> > 200 �
> > 201 �
> > 202 �
> > 203 �
> > 204 �
> > 205 �
> > 206 �
> > 207 �
> > 208 �
> > 209 �
> > 210 �
> > 211 �
> > 212 �
> > 213 �
> > 214 �
> > 215 �
> > 216 �
> > 217 �
> > 218 � end line art
> > 219 �
> > 220 � shaddow art
> > 221 � "
> > 222 � "
> > 223 � "
> > 224 � alpha
> > 225 � beta
> > 226 �
> > 227 �
> > 228 �
> > 229 � sigma
> > 230 �
> > 231 �
> > 232 �
> > 233 �
> > 234 �
> > 235 �
> > 236 � infinity
> > 237 �
> > 238 �
> > 239 �
> > 240 �
> > 241 �
> > 242 �
> > 243 �
> > 244 � integral
> > 245 � integral
> > 246 �
> > 247 �
> > 248 � degree symbol
> > 249 �
> > 250 �
> > 251 � sq. root
> > 252 �
> > 253 �
> > 254 �
> > 255 � really cool space to confuse file name
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How is a radiometer an electric motor?
Is it a light motor, or is it a heat motor? I have heard some people think
it moves because light hits it and pushes against the vanes. If that were
the mechanism of movement then the white side would get a greater push
because the light is reflected, whereas on the black side the light is
absorbed. Simple physics, right? However, why is it that the white side
moves forward rather than back? The real mechanism is heat. The black side
heats up more than the white. The low vacuum means some small amount of gas
molecules still exist inside. When a gas molecule comes into contact with
the hot black surface it is heated and moves away rapidly, giving a push to
the black side.
Is that the correct mechanism at work to move the vanes in a radiometer?
Sincerely,
David
S. David Lalonde
Soopah Packs @ http://www.soopah.com/
http://profiles.yahoo.com/soopahphat
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: motors with no magnetic fields.
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> I'm racking my brain to
> >> remember what it's called; a helioscope?
>
> David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> > It's a radiometer. Here's one:
> >
http://www.scientificsonline.com/ec/Products/Display.cfm?CategoryID=222285
>
> That's it! Thanks David. Run it with a light bulb, and you have a
> working example of an electric motor that doesn't use magnetics.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2003-03-29 at 18:15, S. David Lalonde wrote:
> How is a radiometer an electric motor?
>
> Is it a light motor, or is it a heat motor?
Either, kind of.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question239.htm
> I have heard some people think
> it moves because light hits it and pushes against the vanes. If that were
> the mechanism of movement then the white side would get a greater push
> because the light is reflected, whereas on the black side the light is
> absorbed. Simple physics, right? However, why is it that the white side
> moves forward rather than back? The real mechanism is heat. The black side
> heats up more than the white. The low vacuum means some small amount of gas
> molecules still exist inside. When a gas molecule comes into contact with
> the hot black surface it is heated and moves away rapidly, giving a push to
> the black side.
>
> Is that the correct mechanism at work to move the vanes in a radiometer?
No. That is not how it works.
There are two ways it can work. If it is a pure (or near pure) vacuum,
then the photons will bounce off the reflective side and cause it to
spin. If it still has a small amount of gas, then it moves the opposite
way due to thermal transpiration at the edges of the vane (not due to
heated molecules).
See the above link (and the link it points to, below) for a full,
correct explanation.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/LightMill/light-mill.html
Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think this is off topic.
I think it demonstrates a usefull method in promoting
EV's (a marketing approach). Steve is doing his best in
promoting EV's, but it helps to have heavy media hitters like
hollywood stars to promote alternative energy vehicles (EV's were also
mentioned, including the one Laurie David drives).
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Martin Jackson
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 6:11 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: EVLN(Laurie David's RAV4 EV)-long
And maybe a little off topic too ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
>
> Don't know what a bldc controller is, but I've sent
> info saying where to get DCP controllers, if this is
> what you mean. Lots of people _talk_ about needing
> them, but few are buying; although Rich does have a
> list for people who need DCDC converters.
>
> --- The Levine Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I read elsewhere that Rich Rudman will be making
> > bldc controllers - is this
> > true, and if so, why not make more T-Rex and Raptor
> > controllers, which
> > already has a market (and plenty of people waiting
> > for new ones)?
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
Bob, Damon has held onto that DC/DC product. Unfortunatley.
I have done BLDC Brushless DC motor controllers. I am not now producing
them. Not enough Cash on hand to do it right. But....that could change.
I was doing 12 Kw and 50 Kw. The motors were not advanced enough for the
ruggedness that I wished to put my name on.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> Running at 325 volts it will put 18 amps into the pack. For a total wattage
> of 5,850 at the pack.
>
> Not too bad, but I wonder if it could do *more*. On a hard regen the pack
> can suck 100 amps into itself; and Hawker says there is no technical limit
> to how much power the batteries can suck (up to a voltage point, then you
> need to back off). Are there bigger MagneCharger systems than the Type II's?
>
> Wondering if he can get 3 phase into the house :-)
>
> Chris
I just don't want to be outdone..
John Lussmyer's Sparrow just got a 58 amps at 180VDC Stuff charge, woke
them tired Yts right up.
5850 watts is just above where I set PFC20s to off of 240 VAC, 5Kw or
more.
Sparrows on PFC50s, Yea the way Evs are suppoesed be charged.
I got it here with a fill up at Rod's in Pt Towsend, and a fill up from
a nice luch shop in Pt. Ludlow. Esspresso plug ins do just fine with a
PFC20 on 240 VAC. a solid 20 amps in to the Yts.
Ok John Wayland I hear ya laughing... it's a old #20 Stocker... maybe I
should put a buck enhancer on it and screw it up to 30 amps.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How is it that politicians and big auto companies think they can produce
a
"high tech" Fuel Cell powered EV when they can't (or just don't want to)
produce a simpler low tech Battery powered EV at a reasonable price.
Is this just another way to give auto companies and fuel cell companies
money to work on fuel cells.
On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:38:22 -0800 Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Very nice overview of the big picture regarding fuel cells and their
> use
> in EV's.
>
> It seems like perhaps it's a good time for a bumper sticker that
> would help
> the public realize that the fuel cell vehicles that the industry and
>
> administration
> are attempting to promote as the next great thing are still EV's!
>
> How about ...
> Fuel Cell Vehicles are
> Electric Vehicles too !
>
> or
> Can't make a Fuel Cell Vehicle without
> making an Electric Vehicle first !
>
> or
> Sell the Electric Vehicles now,
> Add the Fuel Cell to it Later !
>
> or (probably wouldn't fit or be understood outside this list.)
> Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (best case):
> (12% effecient) volts+water =60%> hydrogen+storage+delivery =50%>
> hydrogen+HFC=water+heat+volts =40%> Electric traction motors.
> - versus -
> Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (infrastructure-less):
> (24% effecient) volts+water =60%> hydrogen+HFC=water+heat+volts
> =40%>
> Electric traction motors.
> - versus -
> Battery Electric Vehicle (Almost already available):
> (83% effecient) volts+grid =92%> battery packs =90%> Electric
> traction
> motors.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
>
> Darryl McMahon wrote:
>
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >>Fuel cell powered car is nothing but an EV powered by taking
> hydrogen from
> >>fossil fuel while on board the vehicle. 1)What is the percentage
> of energy
> >>in hydrogen divided by the percentage of the fossil fuel it is
> being
> >>removed from ? 2) How does the mile per gallon of fuel decrease
> after
> >>reforming hydrogen from fossil fuel ? 3)What is the cost of this
> Fuel Cell
> >>powered EV compared to a simple battery powered EV ? 4)Does the
> public
> >>really think it will be any cheaper to buy or operate than any
> other of
> >>the $ 40 K+ EVs put out by the big Auto Manufacturers (RAV4, EV1,
> Ford
> >>Ranger, etc.) ? 5)What will be the new maintenance associated with
> an on
> >>board hydrogen reformer and fuel cells ?? 6) Fuel cell powered
> public
> >>transportation such as city busses would be great and reduce
> pollution,
> >>but what will be the costs ? Menlo Park III, Bill
> >>
> >Regarding potential for hydrogen fuel cell EVs, please see:
> >
> >http://www.econogics.com/ev/fcevreal.htm
> >
> >Darryl McMahon
> >
> >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't know about the status of the business but a real estate agent friend
that I was talking to today told me that Tom Corbin, "the guy that's selling
those Sparrow electric cars" had contacted his office to look for country
property up here in west Sonoma County. Maybe it's retirement time for Tom.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Corbin Motors (makers of the Sparrow) seems to have gone under
> At 12:54 PM 3/26/2003 -0500, Sam Harper wrote:
> >Their phone system picked up for me.
>
> Yeah, a couple people have mentioned that. It's just that you never get
> ahold of anybody - of course that's no real indicator as you generally
> never did get ahold of anybody.
> Not having cars in the parking lot anymore seems to be a fair indicator
> that they may have gone under though.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, Duuuhhh!
GM claims they spent billions on the EV1. Maybe so, but it wasn't their money. It was
grant money.
The grant money dried up so the program was canned.
The same thing will happen to fuel cells. The trick is to figure out which fancy "new"
pipe dream will replace it, and start getting your grant proposals ready.
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:38:53 -0400
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
> How is it that politicians and big auto companies think they can produce
> a
> "high tech" Fuel Cell powered EV when they can't (or just don't want to)
> produce a simpler low tech Battery powered EV at a reasonable price.
> Is this just another way to give auto companies and fuel cell companies
> money to work on fuel cells.
>
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:38:22 -0800 Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> writes:
> > Very nice overview of the big picture regarding fuel cells and their
> > use
> > in EV's.
> >
> > It seems like perhaps it's a good time for a bumper sticker that
> > would help
> > the public realize that the fuel cell vehicles that the industry and
> >
> > administration
> > are attempting to promote as the next great thing are still EV's!
> >
> > How about ...
> > Fuel Cell Vehicles are
> > Electric Vehicles too !
> >
> > or
> > Can't make a Fuel Cell Vehicle without
> > making an Electric Vehicle first !
> >
> > or
> > Sell the Electric Vehicles now,
> > Add the Fuel Cell to it Later !
> >
> > or (probably wouldn't fit or be understood outside this list.)
> > Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (best case):
> > (12% effecient) volts+water =60%> hydrogen+storage+delivery =50%>
> > hydrogen+HFC=water+heat+volts =40%> Electric traction motors.
> > - versus -
> > Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (infrastructure-less):
> > (24% effecient) volts+water =60%> hydrogen+HFC=water+heat+volts
> > =40%>
> > Electric traction motors.
> > - versus -
> > Battery Electric Vehicle (Almost already available):
> > (83% effecient) volts+grid =92%> battery packs =90%> Electric
> > traction
> > motors.
> >
> > L8r
> > Ryan
> >
> >
> > Darryl McMahon wrote:
> >
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > >>Fuel cell powered car is nothing but an EV powered by taking
> > hydrogen from
> > >>fossil fuel while on board the vehicle. 1)What is the percentage
> > of energy
> > >>in hydrogen divided by the percentage of the fossil fuel it is
> > being
> > >>removed from ? 2) How does the mile per gallon of fuel decrease
> > after
> > >>reforming hydrogen from fossil fuel ? 3)What is the cost of this
> > Fuel Cell
> > >>powered EV compared to a simple battery powered EV ? 4)Does the
> > public
> > >>really think it will be any cheaper to buy or operate than any
> > other of
> > >>the $ 40 K+ EVs put out by the big Auto Manufacturers (RAV4, EV1,
> > Ford
> > >>Ranger, etc.) ? 5)What will be the new maintenance associated with
> > an on
> > >>board hydrogen reformer and fuel cells ?? 6) Fuel cell powered
> > public
> > >>transportation such as city busses would be great and reduce
> > pollution,
> > >>but what will be the costs ? Menlo Park III, Bill
> > >>
> > >Regarding potential for hydrogen fuel cell EVs, please see:
> > >
> > >http://www.econogics.com/ev/fcevreal.htm
> > >
> > >Darryl McMahon
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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Stay Charged!
Hump
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I checked out your balancer output, impressive!
fred whitridge wrote:
> While it was out of service for several weeks a wimpy 6amp "blinky"
> charger tried to stand in for it. This little off the shelf auto
> battery charger barely creaked above 14.0v which wasn't enought to
> fully balance my Optima YT's.
All of the "blinkin'" chargers that I've dealt with, and that
charge my car, have a control pot. The one that I tested could be
turned up to just over 16 volts.
Just barely above 14.0 is the factory setting, and is what
I use in my portable blinkin' charger that is currently slowly topping up
a baby YellowTop that has been sitting idle for some time. The chargers
in my car are also set for just 14.0 volts, as they perform only the low
powered bulk and timed equalization phases of the charge, and not the
end of cycle overcharge. Sometimes I like to leave it plugged in for
several extra days at 14.0 volts which does wonders for getting all the
batteries nicely matched.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hm. The next step here might be to get a second MC system and split the pack
on charging. That way each string of 25 batteries can have it's own 6,000
watt feeding, thus bringing the car up to full charge in a little over an
hour.
Question is where to put the second paddle. Aside from that it's just
wiring, splitting the temp sensors, and building a special contactor to
split the pack during charges.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Magnecharger performance
> Christopher Zach wrote:
> >
> > Running at 325 volts it will put 18 amps into the pack. For a total
wattage
> > of 5,850 at the pack.
> >
> > Not too bad, but I wonder if it could do *more*. On a hard regen the
pack
> > can suck 100 amps into itself; and Hawker says there is no technical
limit
> > to how much power the batteries can suck (up to a voltage point, then
you
> > need to back off). Are there bigger MagneCharger systems than the Type
II's?
> >
> > Wondering if he can get 3 phase into the house :-)
> >
> > Chris
>
> I just don't want to be outdone..
> John Lussmyer's Sparrow just got a 58 amps at 180VDC Stuff charge, woke
> them tired Yts right up.
> 5850 watts is just above where I set PFC20s to off of 240 VAC, 5Kw or
> more.
>
> Sparrows on PFC50s, Yea the way Evs are suppoesed be charged.
>
> I got it here with a fill up at Rod's in Pt Towsend, and a fill up from
> a nice luch shop in Pt. Ludlow. Esspresso plug ins do just fine with a
> PFC20 on 240 VAC. a solid 20 amps in to the Yts.
> Ok John Wayland I hear ya laughing... it's a old #20 Stocker... maybe I
> should put a buck enhancer on it and screw it up to 30 amps.
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The key word is think. Guys in ties aren't often bound by practical
matters. CEOs doen't hear the word "no" very often. Middle management
either doesn't have the spine or the understand enough to say "no". It
is one thing to demand that a presentation (for example) gets done
overnight. That is just more overtime. But overtime doesn't often yield
huge scientific/engineering achievments.
At least that's how an engineer near the bottom of the pyramid sees it...
<rant on>
Technological hurdles like:
Who really wants to hear about freezing your PEM stack solid at 20F, or
that you really can't keep enough ions out of the water to prevent
ground faults in a 200V stack, or that it needs passivated stainless
everything, no flexible hoses. Or that the lower flammable limit for H2
is 2% in air. Or that peak efficiency is 50-60% not including the
seventeen exhaust fans and pumps or that the voltage drops like a stone
under load. And where did that H2 come from. Or that you *still need a
decent EV and EV battery* underneath it all to make it work, becasue
they take minutes to turn on and the voltage droops so much. Use fuel
cells to go to the moon, not the grocery store. Go to the grocery store
in a battery EV.
<rant off>
Seth
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> How is it that politicians and big auto companies think they can produce
> a
> "high tech" Fuel Cell powered EV when they can't (or just don't want to)
> produce a simpler low tech Battery powered EV at a reasonable price.
> Is this just another way to give auto companies and fuel cell companies
> money to work on fuel cells.
>
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you run the EV13206.EXE program, you will notice that one of the
screens mentions a second MagneCharge (don't have it handy to get the
actual wording). It looks like the onboard MagneCharge controller
probably supports two units. Who knows if that has every been tested?
Alex Karahalios
On Saturday, March 29, 2003, at 08:04 PM, Christopher Zach wrote:
Hm. The next step here might be to get a second MC system and split
the pack
on charging. That way each string of 25 batteries can have it's own
6,000
watt feeding, thus bringing the car up to full charge in a little over
an
hour.
Question is where to put the second paddle. Aside from that it's just
wiring, splitting the temp sensors, and building a special contactor to
split the pack during charges.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2003-03-29 at 05:25, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> I headed up El Camino to try to corner the Home Depot
> rep I had been courting to give me a job. Traffic was
> tight as it was 5pm, that actually was an advantage as
> if the traffic were light, SUVs would get mad at me
> for not racing to the next red light each time.
>
> I caught up the HR rep expecting to be beaten up by
> the background check.
>
> He said, 'no ... you're clean, and I have a job for you'.
Very cool! Glad to hear that you're gainfully employed again. That
makes three people I know that have found jobs in the last week! Gives
me a little hope.
TTFN,
Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Drawing huge amounts of current all the time does not improve
> efficiency, it lowers it. One of the biggest loses in a motor
is I2R
> losses. If you draw a huge amount of current when producing
very little
> power you will have huge losses due to I2R.
And are the I2R losses the main reason why, for efficiency, that
we should run our motors at higher rpms where the motor voltage
tends to be higher and motor amps lower?
Now here's one for you: I notice that coming up my steep hill to
my apt, when I've tried the experiment of coming up it in 2nd
gear rather than the normal 1st, once I pull into my carport in a
couple of hundred feet over in front of my building, both the
controller and motor are a bit cooler than if I do it in first.
(If I try the hill in second, I do have to shift down to 1st
about 3/4 of the way up the hill, or it just gets too slow
(~18mph with the motor amps heading past 400) to be pulling in
2nd on that grade.) The only thing I can think of is that in 2nd
on the flat on the bottom, I can pick up a lot more speed (like
about 25-30) before the hill starts going up, and I get to the
top sooner, than with the ~22mph start in 1st, running at about
17mph. In 1st gear, it takes me about 30-40 seconds to do this
hill.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Bruce, congratulations on the new job!! and that means you
can stay in the Bay Area too. I'm sure there will be hard days
at the new job, but you have to hack 'em. Enjoy your ampabout
postings.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: ampabout
> A letter sent to me with a copy of an employment
> background check report, had knocked the wind out of
> my sails.
>
> If I read it correctly, I was a felonious criminal.
>
> It looked like, the over zealous San Bruno police officer
> that had towed my EV away a year ago, because he thought
> my EV would cause a fire when plugged in at Tanforan
> Shopping center, and wanted to charge me with a felony
> for 15 cents worth of Electricity that I did not have
> 'written' permission for, had put a 'black eye' on my
> record. I spent this week scurrying around trying to
> resolve this.
>
> After spending two hours today, to pay to get an
> appointment to come back in two weeks so that I
> could see what was on the books, I headed back North
> towards home.
>
> My four new batteries are breaking in nicely and I can
> already see the difference. The pack voltage is normal,
> the finishing charge is taking the normal time now, and
> the amount of current needed to sustain my highway speed
> is less. Its nice to have a happy pack again.
>
> ...
> I stopped off at Otmar's EV charging spot reading -70 ah
> down. A half hour later I was unplugging as the charge
> current had tapered and I had put enough amps into my
> pack to have a reading of -20ahs.
>
> As I was coiling the 10-3 cords with the 14-50's on
> them, an older couple passing by asked, "Is that an
> all Electric, or ..." (looking puzzeled).
>
> I said, "Yes, its Electric, and no its not a hybrid.
> Hybrids use fuel like a gas car" (those were words they
> could understand).
>
> The husband (who looked like an older Fred Mertz),
> was dwelling on the two 12V PV panels on my hood.
> I made sure they knew that those only charged my
> 12V battery, not the ones I drive with.
>
> He was more excited about how he had put a PV panel
> on his camper van to keep his deep-cycle topped off
> (I did not go into detail about the differences
> between his batteries and PVs and mine, as their
> body language told me they were not interested as
> 'they' knew all about them).
>
> They both were excited about the 'vodka battery'
> (as if they were current on new technologies, when
> really it was what the media had fed them). I gently
> informed them that there are small 'fuel cells' out
> there that use fuel but manufacturers are not using
> 'closed CO2 loop' renewable sources for either the
> methanol or ethanol.
>
> The wife said, "They will" (meaning in the future).
> I smirked, and said "When? ..."
> She sighed (like, you-are-right) and said, "maybe
> after the war". The conversation disintegrated into
> their unhappiness in paying for it and so on.
>
> ...
> I headed up El Camino to try to corner the Home Depot
> rep I had been courting to give me a job. Traffic was
> tight as it was 5pm, that actually was an advantage as
> if the traffic were light, SUVs would get mad at me
> for not racing to the next red light each time.
>
> I caught up the HR rep expecting to be beaten up by
> the background check.
>
> He said, 'no ... you're clean, and I have a job for you'.
>
> Well needless to say, I took the job no matter what it
> was. After a year and a half of looking (and whining
> to the List), I would do anything just to be part of the
> work force again (its hard for an ex-hp'r not to work).
>
> My orientation will begin this Monday on the other side
> of the bay at their San Leandro store. It just so happens
> that there is an EV charging spot at a Costco within
> walking distance. I have sent an email to my East Bay
> EV contact to find out if that charging spot has a
> working AVCON (so I can use my PFC-50 charger).
>
> So, Monday through Wednesday I will be slogging through
> early morning commute traffic across the Hwy 92 bridge,
> to and from my work orientation class.
>
> >From Thursday on, I will be working at my local store
> (5 mi from home). But sacrifices will have to be made.
>
> I will be working my 8 hours each day in a window from
> 6am to 10pm. So one day I might be 6am-3pm, the next
> 2pm-10pm, and 10am-7pm on another. I will always work
> weekends, so EAA meetings are out. I have to give three
> weeks notice to get time off. So attending EVents where
> they ask me to show my EV is out too.
>
> Employment here is really hard to get, and I am happy
> to take what I can get (even at 30% of what I was making
> before). Let hope I can keep this job so I can keep my
> EV on the road :-)
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Current Eliminator ran six times yesterday.Mph#s were over 130.After the
races I took the CE over to the wild car show in Scotsdale.Evs had a large
section of the lot were I met many old an new friends.This informal every
weekend car show is a must see if your in Pho. on a sat. nite.The Current
Eliminator will be on the Firebird raceway track on Fri.nite,april4th.Five
hot runs are planned. Dennis Kill A Watt Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
After a full Saturday of cleaning the garage, supervised and aided by the
beautiful wife, after supper I am reading the EVDL Digest, both 2581 from
Feb 9 and 10 and 2686 from Mar 28. In the earlier Digest, Garry states
that the power plant for his McLaren m6gt comes from a Lansing bagnal toer.
He has empirical data which supports his vehicle design and that data seems
reasonable.
More recently the discussion has moved around to getting rid of the voltage
induced in the armature windings known usually as back EMF, a voltage.
This voltage is induced in the armature windings as they move thru the mag-
netic field provided by the field current and windings or by the permanent
magnetic. The desired result is power delivered to the mechanical load
coupled to the armature. This power comes in from the utility supply goes
to the armature via the brush rigging, brushes, commutator, and armature
winding. Any power that leaves the armature via the shaft to operate a
load or leaves by some unusual scheme to recharge a battery came in thru
the usual route, that is, via the brushes. Power dissipated as heat in
the brushes or armature comes in by the usual route as well.
Take a look at this simplified ASCII armature circuit. Note carefully the
direction of the current and the signs of voltage difference, remembering
that direct current flowing into the more positive terminal means that
electrical power is delivered to that element.
_____________________________
+ Current ---> | +
\
/ Resistance of brushes, rigging,
Power in \ commutator, and armature windings
say, 20 VDC at 10 A / where R(total) = 0.4 ohms
P = 20 x 10 = 200 W \ and Power lost at heat = 40 W
/
| -
|
_|_+
/ \ Direction of induced voltage is
/ \ determined by armature rotation
/ back \ and field direction. The voltage
| EMF | difference indicated is correct
\ gen / for motor rotating load in the
\ / direction of applied motor torque
\___/ back EMF = 16 V, Power = 160 W
- | -
_____________________________|
On the left the supply voltage (voltage rise) is 20 V. On the right (in the
brush rigging, brushes, commutator, and armature winding, there is a 4 V drop.
The remaining 16 V appears as back EMF with current flowing in the + end. The
sum of these two is 20 V which equals the input. Now, current into the posi-
tive end of back EMF (induced voltage in armature) times that voltage is power
provided electrically and leaving the circuit in some other form. What are
the choices? Not heat, that is already accounted for. Not light, sound (not
much, anyway), not computerese, not x-rays. It leaves in the form of (drum
roll, please) mechanical power from armature to the shaft. Pretty much all
160 W goes to the shaft. That makes this about a 1/6 hp motor if the
rotating mechanical losses are included.
Hope this helps.
Rhett
--- End Message ---
